Ep 12 – Heritage Journey and Dating Around

In the documentary Heritage Journey, Rondel Holder shows how the popular trend of DNA testing can be illuminating for African Americans whose specific ancestry may have been lost in the Transatlantic slave trade. Lin recommends this informative and thought-provoking documentary.

The concept for Netflix’s non-scripted Dating Around is five first dates, but only one second date for a protagonist per episode. Its second episode features Gurki Basra, a successful professional woman of Punjabi descent. This episode contains a problematic, potentially triggering scene which showcases the chasm between unacknowledged privilege and marginalization.

Question of the episode: Have you had a DNA test done? If so, what did you think of the results? If not, what do you think about the benefits and drawbacks of DNA testing?

Join the conversation on Twitter at @World_ofStories or email us at worldofstoriespodcast@gmail.com. 

Transcript

Margrit 0:00
Welcome to World of Stories. I’m Margrit. And my pronouns is they.

Lin 0:03
I’m Lin and my pronouns she and we’re here to talk about diversity in storytelling.

So we have a comment from a very loyal listener of ours Anne Gagne, who mentioned a documentary on Netflix to us called Chuck Norris Versus Communism. And I have not seen this. So I went on to Netflix, and the description on Netflix is about a Romanian dictator. And M, I’m gonna let you pronounce this.

Margrit 0:22
Nicolae Ceausescu.

Lin 0:34
So I think it was in during the communist Soviet Union era where there was a ban on Western media. And so apparently, this documentary is about how there’s a lot of bootlegged films that was smuggled into the country and the sort of impact and fallout from that. And I figured M, you are from Romania. And I wondered, do you have any thoughts on this?

Margrit 1:06
So I looked, I looked up the documentary after Anne mentioned it, and when I saw it was about Romania during Ceausescu’s role, I noped right out of it.

Lin 1:15
Why?

Margrit 1:16
I just still not ready to go there. 30 years after the fall of communism, it’s just yeah. But I do remember my parents. So communism in Eastern Europe fell in 1989. So exactly 30 years ago. Well, not exactly because it was in December. Anyway, about 30 years ago.

Lin 1:36
Minor detail.

Margrit 1:37
That’s right. That’s right. And I remember when my parents got a video player in the mid-80s. And what a humongous deal that was, and it was all very sort of hush hush and obviously from the black market, I don’t know who was smuggling them in. I’ve no idea how my parents got it. It was ridiculously expensive, like ridiculously expensive. And there was a whole black market of videotapes. Like I don’t know if people are still familiar with the technology, but you can copy videotapes. But the quality gets worse and worse.

Lin 2:15
Yeah.

Margrit 2:17
And anyway, so we watched a lot of poor resolution, poor quality films, anything that was coming from the West was super enticing and very, very interesting because we were so, like you said, there was a ban on any kind of Western media because we would not allow Western–decadent Western ideology to corrupt us pure communist souls.

Lin 2:41
Uh huh. Yeah.

Margrit 2:42
And, you’re nodding along as if that’s totally familiar rhetoric.

Lin 2:49
Well, no, but I mean, that’s, I mean, I’ve never lived under a communist regime, but that’s my understanding of what communism was.

Margrit 2:58
Exactly. And so yeah, it was big deal. It was a big deal to be able to watch things and exchange videotapes and stuff.

Lin 3:05
Mm hmm. So did people look at the Western media and be like, oh, we’re so resentful that it looked like this place that had abundance when we don’t have that much or was that something they, they wanted to, like go there and participate in?

Margrit 3:24
I think it was the latter. I think it was more aspirational, like, and people did. People, you know, immigrated. And actually they did–there wasn’t immigration. It was like, they just fled the country at great cost and super great risk, just like, you know, people nowadays are fleeing places of conflict. And yeah, it was. It was aspirational. We were looking at it with a sort of like, watching a fantasy with very, without abundance of any kind of goods, daily goods that here, you know, in the West, we just take for granted.

Lin 4:06
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Margrit 4:08
That were just not available.

Lin 4:10
Yeah. Yeah. That’s fascinating.

Margrit 4:13
Yeah. And that’s why I don’t want to go back. I mean, not literally, I just don’t want to go watch a documentary about those times, because I remember them quite keenly. And not with any kind of pleasure or nostalgia.

Lin 4:27
Yeah. I’m sure it’s very traumatic. Maybe in another 30 years.

Margrit 4:32
Maybe, maybe, you know, once, yeah. If you know, Netflix still keeps it on. Who knows? So Lin, what have you been enjoying this week?

Lin 4:42
Well, I stumbled across this documentary. Well, I shouldn’t say stumbled across. I came across it through a podcast called Ungentrified. And it’s a very short documentary. It’s only about 15 minutes long, but it’s in two parts. And it’s by a guy named Rondel Holder. And Holder is a Black American entrepreneur who works in culture and travel. And what he did in this documentary was he took one of those DNA tests that are so popular these days. And he wanted to know what his ancestry is. And so his parents are from Jamaica and Grenada. But as with pretty much, or most Black people in the US and in the Americas, generally, their histories come from somewhere in Africa.

And so he wanted to get a better understanding of where his ancestors were from in Africa. And so it turns out that his test results came back and his DNA traces to Togo and Benin in West Africa. So he goes there to visit. And so the documentary, as I said, it’s very short. It’s only 15 minutes. So it’s more of an introduction, or a teaser to modern day Togo and Benin. And he goes, and he meets some local entrepreneurs, people who are, you know, in fashion design, who are working in the travel industry, not just in these countries, but sort of across Africa. People who are cultural innovators and things like that, to see sort of what is going on in those countries.

Margrit 6:36
It sounds awesome.

Lin 6:37
Yeah, it’s really cool. And he also visits cultural landmarks. So for example, he goes to this python temple in Benin, and I learned something new. I didn’t know this. But pythons are a religious animal in the Voodoo religion.

Margrit 6:51
Okay.

Lin 6:52
And Voodoo originated from Benin and the surrounding areas and when people were captured and brought to the Americas as slaves, they brought that religion with them.

Margrit 7:05
Yeah.

Lin 7:05
So that’s why it’s practiced in a bunch of Caribbean countries and also in parts of the US, and probably in other places, too. I just don’t know. And so he goes to this python temple and it’s hilarious because he’s like, holding these giant snakes.

Margrit 7:20
Oh my god.

Lin 7:21
And he’s like sweating.

Margrit 7:23
Yeah.

Lin 7:24
Like, ahh!!

Margrit 7:26
I would be too if I ever touched a python.

Lin 7:30
Yeah, he’s got one like, wrapped around his neck. And he’s like, ahh, get this thing off of me.

Margrit 7:37
Oh my goodness.

Lin 7:39
So yeah, that was funny. And then he also visits a city that is built on water. And they call themselves the Venice of Africa. And apparently, it was built by people who were escaping slavery and they went to this river. It’s kind of remote and they built houses on top of stilts, and they have like water taxis and these boats. And so there’s, it’s cool because aesthetically it’s very different and interesting and beautiful, but also has very deep cultural and historical meaning. And he also visits a lot of other places that have connections to the slave trade and, you know, is exploring that part of the history of the country, but also the history of his own ancestors. Mm hmm.

Margrit 8:32
Yeah, I think that’s actually enriching the concept of the travel show, which so many times is just like, oh, look at these beautiful buildings. And it’s usually like, Euro–centered on European countries and like, look at these cathedrals and blah, blah, blah. And for me watching a show that has, that does not askew the historical context of colonization and imperialism and people being sort of kidnapped from their homeland. And yeah, it would just enrich the idea of the show in itself.

Lin 9:08
Mm hmm. Because I think a lot of the travel shows, especially in Europe, or shows that highlight European locales, is, is as if Europe flourished in isolation.

Margrit 9:25
Yeah, I remember this. Yeah. So well, when I was in Barcelona a couple years ago, and like looking at that tremendously incredible architecture, and thinking about, wow, this is amazing, but it was all built on, you know, slavery and colonialism, and stuff like that. Yeah.

Lin 9:43
Yeah, exactly. And all of the things like, it’s like the ongoing criticism, right, of British museums, and you’re like, oh, there’s so many cool artifacts in British museums. Yeah. Because they stole them from all of these places that they went and colonized. So yeah.

So I think it’s important, even as we, you know, travel and learning about local cultures and stuff to realize that very few things happen in isolation. And so just be aware of sort of, like, the historical impact of these places.

Margrit 10:19
Absolutely, yeah.

Lin 10:20
And so I think this documentary is really cool in and of itself, but it’s also a part of a larger conversation about DNA tests and, and their popularity because there’s–I mean, there’s controversy over whether these tests are even accurate. And I’ve seen some news reports where people got tests from different companies and got different results from different companies. So yeah, there’s a question about whether they’re even reliable or not.

Margrit 10:55
Right.

Lin 10:55
But, you know, putting that aside, I think there’s a lot of consequences to the results of these tests because, well, one if they reinforce what someone believes about themselves, like, that’s one thing, right? Like for a lot of Black people in the Americas, if they have lost that connection to where their ancestors were from in Africa, and they may not know what part of Africa their ancestors were from, this might be a way for them to use technology to reclaim a bit of that past and a bit of that history. And I’ve certainly heard multiple instances of people doing that.

But then what if the results come back and show something unexpected? Like I’m Asian, but what if my test results show some small percentage tracing back to an African country? Like I can’t claim that identity because I haven’t lived as a Black person. I haven’t experienced what Black people experience. So like, what right do I have to say like, oh, I’m like, however, many percentage from whatever African country, right?

And so I think there are larger consequences about identity, like an individual’s identity, but also a community’s identity that hasn’t really been thought through with these tests.

Margrit 12:17
I think that happens a lot with technology, especially, you know, with the explosive development of technology we’ve had recently, Like, you know, with social media right now, everybody’s, not everybody, but a lot of people have adopted it, and now, people are thinking about okay, but what is this doing to human interactions and relationships? And how is this changing relationships fundamentally, right? I think a part of a larger trend where the technology becomes available, and we embrace it. And then and then we start to think what it does do our sense of self, right?

Lin 12:49
Right. Exactly. Yeah. So I don’t even know if I would want to get these DNA tests. Like part of me is curious to find out what the results might be. But also part of me is like, but I don’t want to give these people my DNA.

Margrit 13:05
High five there.

Lin 13:10
Yeah. Cause like, I don’t know who these people are. What are they going to do with this?

Margrit 13:15
Exactly.

Lin 13:15
Like, is this gonna be some sort of like–

Margrit 13:18
Will there be a Hudson Lin clone walking around somewhere?

Lin 13:23
Well, not even that but like, what if they can now track me. I mean, technology can also track me, like I have no illusions about these big tech companies and they, like know exactly where I am at all times of the day. They like target ads at me based off of what I’ve been talking about. So, yeah, I get that. But like DNA is almost like the next level of you know, big brother type of, you know, tracking people and making sure that they stay in line, right? So…

Margrit 13:51
Absolutely, absolutely. And there’s so many markers for like predisposition to certain diseases, for example, or conditions and that can be used when it comes to, you know, medical insurance in the States, for example.

Lin 13:51
Right.

Margrit 14:07
So, yeah, I mean, the less information people have, that is not in your control, it’s probably for the better.

Lin 14:16
Yeah.

Margrit 13:58
I’m not a control freak. I swear. I’ve just lived in communism. That’s the communism in me talking.

Lin 13:58
Yeah, well, it’s completely understandable.

Margrit 14:17
Yeah. Thank you for validating me.

Lin 14:33
Well, M, what have you been watching this week?

Margrit 14:37
Well, I was going to talk about something completely different today. But last night, I was bored. So I was just clicking around on Netflix and this show called Dating Around popped up.

Lin 14:47
Okay.

Margrit 14:48
And it was sort of recommended and it had this, you know, the tag, LGBTQ tag and I’m like, okay, let’s check this out and see what it is. And well, Dating Around as an unscripted show. It premiered on Netflix on Valentine’s Day, so very recently. And so the format of it is that there’s one person who goes on five first dates, but only one second date. And it takes place in New York City. And the first five dates is like drinks and dinner and then more drinks, and then they walk around or they take a drive at the end of the night.

And so I watched parts of the first three episodes. So this is basically I think the sort of Netflix’s response to The Bachelor and The Bachelorette and dating shows like that.

Lin 15:36
Okay.

Margrit 15:36
But it’s not, it’s not in this, sort of, like, here is this god slash goddess person that a bunch of people who identify as the opposite gender must cater to and make themselves likable to or whatever.

Lin 15:53
Right.

Margrit 15:54
Um, it’s just kind of peeping into their intimate conversations. I know, I know. It’s kind of a little bit of a train wreck. And so the first dater is a white man in his 20s. And he goes on dates with five women. And I had so much secondhand embarrassment. I could not watch it to the end.

Lin 16:20
Oh my god, I can’t watch these shows.

Margrit 16:22
I was cringing, like, literally my body was like cringing in on itself. And then I’m like, what am I–why am I doing this to myself? But I was still curious because, you know, train wreck, right? And so in this second episode, Gurki Barca, who is a 36-year-old woman from Texas and her parents come from Punjab in India. And she goes on dates with five guys and she is confident and she’s honest, and she’s very open about her previous marriage. And while she says she bucked the cultural pressure to get married, she’s also upfront about having made mistakes in her marriage and, you know, having gone into it with doubts and so there’s conversations with all the five guys around it. Okay, so here’s the thing, and please stop me from going on a rant. And there’s this white guy. This is the only white guy among the crop of daters. And so, during the after dinner drinks, he starts shouting at her.

Lin 17:24
What? Why?

Margrit 17:25
About how she lied to her husband and to her whole family, because she went into the marriage with doubts from the very beginning and how can he trust her? No, how can any guy in New York trust her when she’s a liar? And during this whole rant, his voice goes louder and louder and his gesticulations more and more broad and erratic. And Gurki tries to put a word in. At first, she’s very good humoured and she takes it a little bit of an out of control joke. You know, as most women probably do when faced with like, they want to defuse it, right?

Lin 18:03
Yeah.

Margrit 18:04
And so he cuts her off, talks over her, shouts louder and louder. And when he finally pauses for breath, like literal, he pauses for breath. And so Gurki, you know, like most women trapped in a situation with an out of control guy tries to rationalize. She says, okay, this right here is a cultural clash.

Lin 18:22
Yeah.

Margrit 18:23
He pays no attention to her. And having gotten his second wind, he revs himself up more and more. And he says, okay, I think. No, sorry. She says, okay, I think we can both agree we’re never going to see each other again. And the guy gets up. He’s still really super aggressive, but also disbelieving that this woman of color dare not listen to his entire rant.

Lin 18:47
Oh my god.

Margrit 18:47
And he finally storms out, and he’s still talking. And I was just, like, honestly watching it, mouth agape, because it was such a problematic terrible moment. Especially in the #MeToo era, like, I actually feared for her well being in that moment. And I think the production went way too far in allowing this moment to unfold for the sake of creating drama. I think this was an example of abusive behavior that is potentially triggering for a lot of people.

Lin 19:17
Yeah.

Margrit 19:18
And it showcases so clearly how the imbalance of power operates in society. Like here’s this, you know, dude bro, like, literal he had like beard and hipster haircut like, you know, I shouldn’t judge because I’m wearing that hair style with the undercut. But you know that–you know, the type of guy I’m talking about. Right?

Lin 19:39
Yeah, yeah.

Margrit 19:40
And like going on and on about trust and stuff. And she’s like, you don’t get it, the cultural pressure, you don’t understand it. And this cultural pressure doesn’t just operate you know, in Indian society. It operates everywhere, especially for women who are like always asked about their marital plans, and then asked about if they’re going to have kids and why they’re not having kids and all of these things. And unfortunately this dude bro is a typical example of the unacknowledged, you know, privilege that white cis straight middle-class able-bodied men have and there was just no talking to him.

Lin 20:17
It’s just like, who does he think he is? You know and like–

Margrit 20:21
A guy who deserves trust.

Lin 20:22
It not just this person but like a whole bunch of like white cis straight men, they, like, they feel so entitled. And the fact that people have different experiences to them like how dare they, you know, have different experiences or how dare they question the validity and entitlement of the white man.

Margrit 20:50
Right.

Lin 20:50
You know and it’s like oh my god.

Margrit 20:52
And here’s this super smart you know, woman saying, hey, hey, hey, just hold on a second. This is an example of, like a cultural like, we don’t have–we don’t–we have not lived in the same paradigm and he’s just not having any of it. He goes on about the trust and how–it was a very terrible moment. And I just I think it should not have been allowed to… And then you know, to happen and then, in the actual episode you can see her. Like they show her for, like, I don’t know, maybe a full minute afterwards being really unsettled, being like, on the brink of tears, and it was a traumatic moment.

Lin 21:34
Yeah, well, this is my question. It’s like, the camera’s there. So clearly, there’s a crew there. Right? Why did they let this happen?

Margrit 21:42
Yeah, this is my question too. For the sake of drama, they basically traumatized this woman. And apparently, I read an article on this show, and they’re like, she’s the only one who chose not to go on a second date with anyone.

Lin 21:57
Well, yeah, I wouldn’t either, if I were her.

Margrit 22:00
Right? It’s just like, I mean, I’m sure they signed like ironclad contracts, saying when anything like that happens… pardon?

Lin 22:09
Oh, you mean like to protect the show people.

Margrit 22:11
To protect the production company and whatever. So she probably has no recourse. But this was super traumatizing.

Lin 22:19
And, you said this had an LGBTQ tag on it?

Margrit 22:22
Yes. So third episode is a gay man who goes on dates. Yeah, I have not watched the whole, the whole episode. I was just like, does it get better? And I don’t know. I don’t have an answer to that.

Lin 22:36
I would assume no.

Margrit 22:39
I don’t know. I dip my toes in it. And that’s my experience. I have lived to tell the tale and to warn you that there’s potential triggers there for…

Lin 22:50
God, that’s terrible. I mean, I hate going on dates myself. I would not want to watch other people’s train wrecks of a date. Like, why?

Margrit 22:59
Yeah.

Lin 23:00
Why? I don’t even understand the appeal of The Bachelor or The Bachelorette because it’s just like–

Margrit 23:07
I’ve never watched it. So, I don’t know. But I think it’s an, like an anthropological study. It’s interesting to see how other people, I guess, react in those situations or what they look for, or what is important to them?

Lin 23:19
I guess, but I’m also like, do people honestly believe that they’re gonna find their like one true love on the show? Like, what? Anyway, that’s maybe a rant for another time.

Margrit 23:34
Yeah. I managed to restrain myself from ranting, so…

Lin 23:40
I could go on. But anyway, yeah.

Margrit 23:45
Do we have a question for this episode?

Lin 23:47
I think we do. Yeah. Let’s go back to the DNA tests. And for the listeners, have you ever had a DNA test done? And if you have, what did you think of the results that you got? And if not, what do you think about the benefits and the drawbacks of DNA testing? Is it a useful tool? Or does it have harmful consequences or maybe a little bit of both?

As always, you can comment on this and other episodes on Twitter at @World_ofStories, or you can email us at worldofstoriespodcast@gmail.com and we would love to hear what you think.

Margrit 24:27
Be sure to subscribe to our podcast to get new episodes as they drop. If you like our show, please leave us a review on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you’re listening to. And thank you so much for listening.

Lin 24:36
Thanks, bye.

Margrit 24:38
Bye.