We live on the unceded traditional territories of indigenous nations.
Ep 2 – Kat Chow’s If We Called Ourselves Yellow, Glasses, and Webtoon
Kat Chow of NPR’s Code Switch wrote about using the term “yellow” to describe East Asians in her article If We Called Ourselves Yellow. Lin discusses her unease with the term and its association with disease.
From there, a conversation about acetate glasses manufactured to fit only a narrow strip of the population evolves into how stereotypes about races and ethnicities still reign in the popular imagination.
Finally, Margrit raves about Webtoons and their rich and entertaining library of diverse comic art.
Question of the episode: How do you feel about using the word “yellow” to describe East Asians?
Bonus question: Do you have trouble finding glasses that fit? Do you have any solutions for making glasses fit better?
Join the conversation on Twitter at @World_ofStories or email us at worldofstoriespodcast@gmail.com.
Transcript
Margrit 0:00
Hi, welcome to World of Stories. I’m Margrit and my pronoun is they.
Lin 0:05
I’m Lin and my pronoun is she and we’re here to talk about diversity in storytelling.
Margrit 0:09
Indeed. So what’s new this week in your life, Lin?
Lin 0:13
So there is an article written by Kat Chow, who is a journalist with NPR’s CodeSwitch podcast and the article is called If We Called Ourselves Yellow. And it is about the term “yellow” to describe East Asians and she writes about how–sort of the origins of where this term came from, and some of the negative connotations that surround the use of this term “yellow” and how other ethnicities use colours like Black and Brown to describe themselves. And, the use of those terms is not viewed in a negative light. But yet yellow still is. And so she was saying how she’s thinking about reclaiming this word. And it’s a very, it’s a very interesting article and it goes both into history and also sort of her thoughts about what to do with this term. Yeah, what to do with this term going forward?
Margrit 1:29
Right. Right. It does a really good job of presenting the cultural history of the term and how it pans out in like a bunch of movies and other kinds of, you know, cultural artifacts that were distributed and how that perpetuated a certain image of East Asian people in general. And how also that connected to policy, right?
Lin 2:00
Yeah, with immigration policies in the US. There was the Chinese Exclusion Act, I believe that was in place for decades and decades, where Chinese people were just not allowed to immigrate into the US. And then there was also Japanese internment during World War Two. I think there’s a couple of others that she mentioned.
Margrit 2:22
Both of which Canada emulated.
Lin 2:26
Yes, that’s right. Yes. Those were both in Canada. And if I remember correctly, the Japanese internment was actually worse in Canada than it was in the US, if I have my Canadian history remembered correctly.
Margrit 2:54
I find this concept, like this way of reclaiming former slurs as a means of empowerment for a certain community, I find it really interesting. And it’s very cool how it pans out for all kinds of marginalizations. Like, for example, the term queer, being reclaimed and used as a way of identifying. And I was just wondering how you personally felt about it. After I read the article–I think it’s a really, really well written article. And it’s really wonderful in terms of being informative, but it will also leave you very angry if you have any kind of social justice leanings. How do you feel about this term?
Lin 3:39
Yeah, I’ve always… So it’s interesting that this article came out now because I have been thinking about the use of the term yellow a couple of months ago, and I have no idea why I was thinking about it, but I was. And then again, this comparison with using Black to describe people, and Brown to describe certain groups of people. And I am kind of uncomfortable with the term yellow.
Margrit 4:09
Why is that?
Lin 4:11
It always reminds me, it reminds me of jaundice. Like yellow skin is like jaundice, right? Which is like an illness. It’s a sickness. It’s a disease and so… so yeah, that’s, I guess my aversion to it. And she doesn’t actually mention jaundice in the article, but she does talk about how there’s a connotation of illness and toxicity and poison when it comes to this idea of yellow, particularly yellow skin. So yeah, I’m not opposed to the idea of reclaiming that word. And in viewing a different definition and connotation on to that word. And like, as you said, like, the term queer and a lot of members of the LGBTQ community have reclaimed that word. And I think there’s certainly power in that. I just–for yellow, might take some time getting used to.
Margrit 5:21
Oh no, absolutely. And that’s obviously up to the community and she–Chow–does a good job of, I think, interviewing a bunch of people and asking them, how do you feel about that? What do you think about that? And I think the way that the article presented, it’s a really interesting way in which, you know, every single person that she’s interviewed, then comes with a different facet of the history of the use of the term and its representation, popular culture and how it still sort of influences popular representations to this day and a lot of harmful stereotypes when it comes to East Asian people, right?
Lin 6:03
Yeah. And, you know, this reminds me of this other article that I was–that I came across today. Or a couple of days ago, I should say. Give me one second, I’m just going to find it.
Margrit 6:19
When she talks about the late 60s movements, like reclaiming the word yellow, and the yellow power, it just reminded me of the Black Panthers who did kind of the same thing. And it was, it was kind of at the same time, too. So, you know, the late 60s revolutionary movements across the world, really, were trying to shift, you know, oppression away and empower marginalized communities in that way. And there’s a lot of similarities and–
Lin 6:52
Yeah, I think in order to reclaim that word, people actually have to use it. And I don’t know if I’ve seen that many East Asian people be willing to use the word yellow? I could be wrong. I could just not be aware of, of groups who are using that. But, yeah, I just don’t see it anywhere.
So that article around Asian stereotypes reminds me of this other article on Refinery29 written by Kristin Wong, and the article is called the “Ideal” Immigrant Worker is a Problematic Trope, especially for women. And she goes into–she starts the article off talking about her mother calling her, and her mother is complaining, confiding about some workplace relationships that seem to be perpetrated by racial stereotypes. And so she goes into how a lot of the values and the sort of behavioral–how do I say this?
This is why I need scripts.
So she goes into how a lot of the values of immigrants, particularly East Asian immigrants, affect the way that people interact in the workplace and to the detriment of the immigrant. And that’s obviously not limited just to East Asians, but also to other–
Margrit 8:57
But there is and I think, more in the States. There’s this notion of the model minority, right? And East Asians are, and South Asians to some degree. And I think it refers to the fact that, you know, some communities tend to struggle, probably financially and in many other ways in order to get their children in education. So they sacrifice everything, just to get that education and to make sure that the children, you know, first generation immigrants and so on, attain a certain social status. And, that’s viewed as sort of the ideal immigrant basically.
Lin 9:40
Yeah, so the values of you know, working hard, not complaining.
Margrit 9:43
Exactly.
Lin 9:44
You know, just like doing the work.
Margrit 9:46
Not stirring the pot.
Lin 9:48
Right and not claiming rights that they don’t feel that they are entitled to.
Margrit 9:54
Yeah.
Lin 9:56
And so yeah, that really resonated with me. And yeah. And so speaking about things that East Asians don’t feel like we are entitled to, I actually have a rant about glasses.
Margrit 10:15
East Asian people should feel entitled to wearing glasses?
Lin 10:15
Something like that. Okay, so I’ve worn glasses since I was eight years old, I think. So I’ve worn glasses my whole life. And for people who know, who wear glasses, there are two main types of glasses, one is the wireframe glasses, with the clear plastic nose pads that are attached to the wireframe. And then the other group is acetate glasses, which is basically like the hard plastic and the nose pad is part of the frame. It’s just molded plastic. Yes, okay. So when I was in high school or university, I don’t remember now. But around that time, all of the trendy glasses were acetate glasses. And you know, I wanted to be the cool kid and be trendy and all that. So, I bought acetate glasses, because that’s what all the cool kids were wearing. Right? Exactly. And, but they always slid down my nose and I thought, well, that’s just what glasses, do they just slide down people’s noses. And I didn’t know any better from, so, for like 20 years. This is, not 20 years, I’m not quite that old. But for a good 10 plus years, that’s just what my glasses always did. They just slid down my face. And about two years ago, some manufacturers started making these things called Asian fit glasses.
Margrit 10:22
Oh my god.
Lin 10:54
Yeah. And I was like, what is this and I like, went to a store, I tried them on and I’m like, “Oh my god, I didn’t realize glasses could fit well.” Like, they’re not falling off my face, they like stay where I want them to stay, and they’re comfortable. What is going on?
Margrit 12:13
So glasses are not supposed to just slide down your nose?
Lin 12:16
Apparently not. Yeah, who knew. And so the difference is that these are–the quote unquote Asian fit glasses are acetate glasses, but the nose piece is bigger so it actually extends out toward the face more than the standard fit glasses. And so what that does is it lifts the whole glasses higher up off the face and positions it correctly. It’s less likely to slide down the nose because there’s more plastic or material to sort of grip the nose and then my cheeks don’t touch the bottom of the glasses, which in a lot of cases they do and then it just like, it’s uncomfortable and it’s smudges the glasses as well. So I was like, I can’t believe that my entire life I’ve been wearing glasses that don’t fit my nose because as the case with most East Asian people, I have a flat wide nose. And that’s technically called a low nose bridge nose.
Margrit 13:33
I like how it’s still your problem. You don’t have a standard nose, you have low bridge. So I mean, get that sorted out.
Lin 13:47
Okay, but hold on a second now, like most East Asian people have this type of nose, but also Southeast Asians and Africans and Black people and Indigenous people. This is like half the world that have noses that are like this.
Margrit 14:01
This is what my sarcasm was aimed at is that you know.
Lin 14:04
I know.
Margrit 14:05
Oh my goodness, this is–
Lin 14:07
Yeah, so it’s like half the planet can’t wear glasses that fit their faces.
Margrit 14:12
Right. So right, because they’re designed…
Lin 14:16
Yeah, they’re designed for like a narrow, pointy-er, for lack of a better word, or like a higher nose bridge nose.
Margrit 14:28
Or the much dreaded amongst my people, the Jewish nose, which has a bump right after the bridge. I was blessed without it. And but my whole experience, especially as a young person in Europe, when I would tell somebody that I’m Jewish, they would look at me like askance, you know, like the head tilt? Like the puppy, the confused puppy look where it’s like, but you don’t have a Jewish nose. And I’m like, well I must not be Jewish. Thank you so much for informing me about that.
Lin 15:05
Right, because you have to have that nose in order to be Jewish.
Margrit 15:08
Ah, right. And and it’s interesting that we kind of roll back to kind of where we started from with Kat Chow’s, sort of cultural investigation of the use of the word yellow and, and all kinds of representations of Asian people because the idea of the Jewish nose was popularized by Nazi propaganda in all of their caricatures and representations of the Jewish menace. There was always like, sort of hunchback, middle aged Jewish man with a hook nose, and that was out to get the poor, you know, the poor Arian people out of their rightful place in, in the world, right? And so again, talking about stereotypes that endure. It’s ridiculous how one small thing can just or something that somebody just throws out there can just live forever and ever and be so incredibly harmful to so many people.
Lin 16:14
Yeah, yeah, that’s crazy.
Margrit 16:17
Yeah, because when I was reading–again, when I was reading Chow’s article, it reminded me a few years ago, I was teaching a course on race and ethnicity and literature and we were reading Edward Long’s History of Jamaica. And Edward Long was this British colonizer in Jamaica, he was some sort of official there and he just, you know, out of his own, free will took it upon himself to write a history of Jamaica, because obviously he was the expert. This was mid-18th century, 1770-something I think it was when it was written. And he was the one who was like, “Okay, I am observing things and therefore that must be the truth.” So he, I think the whole image of like, the over sexualized African person can be traced back to his observations because he basically said, “Oh, look, African people have very, very wide lips, therefore, they must be very into sex.”
Lin 17:19
Oh my god.
Margrit 17:20
And so this is a stereotype that endures. It has been so harmful, you know, the whole sexualization of Black people and sort of, you know, Black men are out there to rape white women and so they’re very, very harmful. It’s just to this day such an enduring, harmful, terrible stereotype that we just cannot get rid of that easily. And it’s just something that originated with somebody who just thought themselves entitled to what is out there.
Lin 17:52
Yeah, and like, same thing with the exoticizing of East Asia, right? Going back to Chow’s article. East Asia was always thought of as this very exotic place. And for some reason yellow was also, has that same connotation, which I don’t understand how yellow can be–the color yellow is exotic, but anyway. Even to this day when there are so many stories out there when you think of, oh, the Orient is this exotic place and you know, the white man goes to somewhere in the Orient and learns, you know, enhances his sexual prowess through learning from some, like teacher or sex master or something like that. You know, there’s a lot of that stuff going on too, to this day.
Margrit 18:45
Yeah, yeah, yes, absolutely. The exoticizing is alive and well and you know, Asia as a place of mystery and people being lazy because it’s warm outside. And therefore they don’t have to work. All of these connections that just seem like when you try to unpack them, they just seem so ridiculous and untenable, and yet they persist in the sort of white Western Eurocentric imagination as proof, right? Yeah.
Lin 18:46
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was all very depressing.
Margrit 19:28
No.
Lin 19:30
So, M, what have you been enjoying this week? Let’s talk about something to lift our spirits?
Margrit 19:36
Yes, I have been enjoying this for a long time. It’s webtoons. Do you know about webtoons?
Lin 19:42
Webtoons. I’ve heard it because you’ve told me about it. Please tell us more.
Margrit 19:47
So webtoons is basically this type of comic that originated in South Korea. I think it was in the early 2000s. But I wouldn’t–I don’t have a citation for that. So it’s very unacademic of me. And it’s the thing about them is that basically they’re comics that are, unlike manga that are published in books, they’re designed for the online environment. And so they have vertical scroll, and they’re very colorful. And I’ve been enjoying this app called Webtoon, which is available, I guess, on all platforms. And it’s a platform for comic artists to present their, their work. And it’s curated. So do you, do you ever read comics?
Lin 20:41
You know, I have not. So I wouldn’t say I know anything about comics.
Margrit 20:48
There’s a terrible gap in your cultural knowledge and you should totally remedy it, Lin. I don’t know if we can be friends anymore.
Lin 20:57
No! Okay, I’ll get on to Webtoons!
Margrit 21:02
Yes, download it right away. Because the thing about Webtoon is that they have all of the genres so you can find romance or you can find science fiction or fantasy or slice of life. And there is a, there’s a huge variety of artistic styles as well. So some of them are sort of very elaborate and complex drawings with a lot of–you can see that they’ve gone through many, many, many stages and drafts, and others are, you know, sketches in which the focus is on the story or on the shtick or anything like that. So there’s definitely something for everyone. Even if you’re not, you know, that much or you think you’re not that much into comics, it’s just a very good way to unwind these days with all that’s happening.
Lin 21:54
Do you have any recommendations for where people can start?
Margrit 21:58
Oh, well, I can tell you what I’ve been enjoying so I, I love a bunch of them. And I’m only gonna mention–you have to stop me. So one of my favorites is Jem Yoshioka’s Circuits and Veins. And it’s about two women, one of whom is human. And the other one is an android and they sort of move in–they don’t move in–the android moves into the apartment next door to the human and the human suffers from anxiety. And so a lot of it is just up in her apartment. And it’s, and I think the way that they meet–the meet cute as it were–is that the human has designed these software, VR pets. They’re kind of like a cross between very cute pomeranians and pineapples.
Lin 22:48
And pineapples?
Margrit 22:50
Pineapple pomeradians kind of a thing. It’s really really cute and I am not doing it justice. So they meet and they kind of like each other and they start dating. And it’s just so so super adorable. And this one particularly is very, very low angst. And I find I find this a lot about the stories in Webtoon, especially these days with all of the things that are happening in the real world and in politics and stuff like that. I find that low angst is my comfort. So if you are into anime, I really recommend a slice of life kind of comic. Like there’s this, I think the artist is based in Malaysia, and she draws this comic called My Giant Nerd Boyfriend. And again, so super cute. The whole shtick is that the boyfriend is I think around two feet taller than the girlfriend. Oh, right, the 60 centimeters or so I think. The art is not very complex, but it’s so good with the story and it’s all about their daily life and their day-to-day relationship and how lovely and caring they are to one another. And it’s just adorable. And it’s just one of those things that gives you hope, or you know, makes you smile and gives you hope for the day till you encounter another article about microaggressions.
Lin 24:28
We need a lot of hope these days. A lot of it.
Margrit 24:31
I think we do.
Lin 24:33
Okay, should we do question of the episode?
Margrit 24:35
Sure. Let’s do a question of the episode.
Lin 24:38
Okay, so how about what do listeners think about using the term yellow to describe East Asians? Does it give you an icky feeling like it gives me or do you think it’s something that East Asians should reclaim and give a new definition to?
Margrit 25:03
That is a very, very good question. And I hope you will take a moment to answer it. And you can answer it on Twitter at @World_ofStories. And we look forward to hearing from you.
Lin 25:22
Yes. And bonus question. If you wear glasses, do you have problems finding glasses that fit? And if you’ve figured out a solution to get glasses to fit better, please tell me because I desperately want to know.
Margrit 25:39
Help Lin out with the glasses.
Lin 25:42
I have glasses problems. So come join the conversation. We want to know what you think. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast wherever you listen, iTunes or Google Play or on Spotify. We are now on Spotify, which is very exciting. And if you like our show, please leave us a review or tell your friends. And we hope that you have a great couple of weeks.
Margrit 26:10
Wonderful. Subscribe and we’ll hear from you soon, I hope. Take care.
Lin 26:14
Take care. Bye