Ep 4 – Happiness and Dating You/Hating You

Hope in trying times. Margrit finds refuge in Thích Nhất Hạnh’s book Happiness that combines meditation practices by the renowned Buddhist monk and activist with anecdotes from his daily life. We chat about the West’s penchant for appropriating spiritual practices like meditation and yoga and stripping them of their roots.

Lin’s quest turns sour when the rom-com she chooses, Dating You/Hating You by Christina Lauren, turns out to be a study in barely challenged sexism. With a heroine who’s professionally successful, yet unpopular, and a hero who’s perfect on paper but unconvincing, Dating You/Hating You only goes through the motions of feminism, without actually embracing it.

Question of the episode: Where do you find hopes in trying times?

Join the conversation on Twitter at @World_ofStories or email us at worldofstoriespodcast@gmail.com. 

Transcript

Margrit 0:01
Welcome to World of Stories. I’m Margrit, and my pronoun is they.

Lin 0:05
I’m Lin and my pronoun is she. We’re here to talk about diversity in storytelling. So Margrit, tell us what have you been reading this week?

Margrit 0:13
Well, a bunch of stuff or not that much, but… it’s midterm, so all I do is grade and mark and go to school and teach and come back…

Lin 0:28
That sounds like so much fun.

Margrit 0:30
Yes, yes indeed. Very much fun. So, I just felt like I needed something to keep me balanced. And I’ve been reading… This book that I’m reading is called Happiness. And I’m like for people who don’t know Thích Nhât Hanh is a Buddhist monk, and he’s very well known. He’s been active in the global activism, peace activism scene for many, many years. And he’s also a prolific author on books on meditation and Buddhist spirituality.

And it just, it was a very good read for me. I basically have been, I’ve been doing meditation for about two years now. And it came in really handy for me when I broke my leg last year, at the beginning of last year and had a long recovery. And so because normally I managed my mental health with physical, being active physically, I wasn’t able to do that. And so meditation was really my saving grace. And I was doing meditation with the app called Headspace.

Lin 2:00
Oh yeah, I’ve heard of that.

Margrit 2:01
Right? Have you tried it.

Lin 2:03
I have not. I’ve got, I’ve have a weird not relationship, but weird, like understanding or a sense of what meditation is. And so, yeah.

Margrit 2:21
In what way? I want to hear more. Now that you mentioned it.

Lin 2:25
Yeah. Well, no, it’s because I grew up in a very religious environment. And meditation has a lot of spiritual connotations to it, which I think that’s the case, for everyone. But in my case, I was in a very conservative Christian environment. So there was the right Christian way to meditate and then the wrong way to meditate that would leave one vulnerable to evil spirits. And all of that and so, um, yeah, so it has a lot… I don’t necessarily prescribe to that view of meditation anymore, but it still is just like this weird thing. I don’t know. It’s weird.

Margrit 3:13
No, that’s actually, it is a really important point when it comes to the way in which meditation has been appropriated by the West because it has been completely, or you know, it has been completely sort of severed from its spiritual or like Buddhist roots, right? Because meditation as it is sort of very popular nowadays here is or has been rooted in, in Buddhist spirituality and religion, right? But in the process of appropriating it, you know, though, Westerners have completely obliterated the Buddhist roots and so I think it’s a very good point to remember that, and this was one of the, one of the problems that I’ve been having with it too and using Headspace, which has monetized meditation.

Lin 4:11
Oh, you have to pay for the app.

Margrit 4:13
Oh, yeah.

Lin 4:14
I didn’t know that. Okay.

Margrit 4:15
It’s super expensive, actually.

Lin 4:17
Oh, okay.

Margrit 4:18
Super expensive. It’s like 17 US dollars a month.

Lin 4:21
What?

Margrit 4:22
I know.

Lin 4:22
Oh my god.

Margrit 4:24
It is super expensive. Yeah. Or you can get a year long subscription if you pay for it at once, which is 100 US dollars. Yeah. So yeah, and they’ve become tremendously successful. Andy Puddicombe, the, the guy who started it, and the guy whose voice is on all of the meditation practices has been on all the shows, and yeah, they’ve got like something like a million subscribers or maybe more.

Lin 4:52
Uh huh. Interesting.

Margrit 4:55
Yeah. So I think you know, because you brought up the point of how it’s linked or not with religious practice. I think that’s a very important point not to not to forget. Because it is something that has originated in, you know, Buddhism. And now it’s been sort of embraced by all kinds of capitalist forces. And there’s a lot of corporate training in mindfulness and meditation because it’s–there is a way in which it can become very productive more. You know, capitalism in the sense that well, it’s up to you to take care of yourself and your mental well being in order to be efficient and effective. Which I’m totally exaggerating or like, changing the–tainting the idea behind mindfulness to sort of suit this purpose, but it has become a big industry just like yoga has, right? Another example of really, really blatant appropriation.

Lin 6:13
Yep. Yeah. I always feel weird when I do yoga because I do do yoga on occasion, and I quite enjoy it. But again, because I grew up in a very conservative Christian environment, I was taught at one point that yoga was evil because yoga is originally from Hinduism. And so I was taught that it was evil to do yoga. And so I mean, I don’t think that anymore. I still do yoga, but I do feel odd when my instructor is white and using a lot of the terms, which I think are in, I don’t know if it’s in Hindi or if it’s in Sanskrit or what language that is. And you know, they’re going into a lot of this like mindfulness more spiritual or mythical aspects of yoga, and I’m just like, how much do you really know what you’re talking about?

Margrit 7:22
Right? Yeah. How much is it the Eat Pray Love version of yoga that you’re…

Lin 7:26
Yeah.

Margrit 7:28
So it’s exactly the same problem. I mean, it’s basically the same idea as with meditation is that there’s the practice has been appropriated and completely severed from its roots and basically, literally sold to us here and we are very happy to embrace it because guess what? These are practices that are thousands of years in the making and they work holistically, right?

Lin 8:00
Yeah.

Margrit 8:01
Anyway, to return to the actual book Happiness that I was reading, and actually I was listening to it because there’s no way I could do any more reading apart from the essays and other things that I’m marking this week. I enjoyed this book tremendously because it’s organized by chapters thematically, right. And so Thích Nhât Hanh offers both anecdotes, as well as guided practices. So there’s a wealth of information to choose from. A lot of points of similarity between the things that he, the practices that he talks about or he describes in this book and Headspace, which again, takes us back to the appropriation and monetizing of these things. But the bottom line for me is that it’s the book and Thích Nhât Hanh’s teachings and his oeuvre as it was, is all about compassion and empathy and kindness. So for me, it exudes hope for humanity, which I think we all need more of these days, these times in which, you know, bigotry and fascism seems to be on the rise once more. So I think if we remember that there’s sort of a common humanity here. It’s a good thing to be left with.

Lin 9:26
I know, we certainly need a lot more of that.

Margrit 9:30
Right, right. Yeah. So how are you getting your ray of sunshine these days, Lin?

Lin 9:38
Well, to go to the completely opposite end of the spectrum from meditation and mindfulness. I finished a story about Hollywood. Which, I guess is not necessarily–I mean–in a certain way, you could say that it’s not the opposite end because meditation and mindfulness is very LA and like, you know, chill and I don’t know. Anyway, this story is called, the book is called Dating You/Hating You by Christina Lauren. And it’s a rom com, about two talent agents in Hollywood, and they meet at a party. And initially they hit it off. And they’ve got great chemistry, and he’s super hot and she’s super cute. And you know, everything is perfect.

Margrit 10:36
Because it’s LA, right?

Lin 10:37
Yeah, exactly. So everyone’s super hot and super cute. And so they are, when the book starts out, when they first meet, they’re working for rival talent agencies. But then, almost immediately after they have their first date, the two agencies merge and it was unexpected. Nobody knew that this was going to happen. So now they’re colleagues and they’re competing against each other for one job opening because you merge, you have redundancies and people get let go. And so they are now competing against each other, but they’re still really attracted to one another. So what do they do? Dun dun dun.

Margrit 11:20
Do not keep us in suspense. Tell us.

Lin 11:23
Oh, well, I will. There is so much racism.

Margrit 11:30
Oh, no.

Lin 11:31
Misogyny, or sorry, not racism. What am I talking about? Oh my god. There was a lot of sexism.

Margrit 11:36
There’s no racism because there are no actual people of colour.

Lin 11:39
Yes, that’s right. No, it’s really true. There are no–no one who is not white. So there’s no racism. There is a lot of sexism, though. And there’s a lot of misogyny and really toxic masculinity and it comes through primarily through their boss, the main characters’ boss, who is the original person who pits them against each other for this one job opening. And the boss is like the antagonist of the story and he just drips of sexism and it just gets worse and worse as the story progresses and it’s just–he’s just an awful, awful character, awful human being. And it’s, the characters are conscious of this and they do talk about how the industry in particular and the professional world generally is filled with sexism and misogyny and toxic masculinity and like these microaggressions that women, to simplify things, women have to deal with every day and men are completely oblivious about. And so that comes out in the story as well, where the hero is initially completely oblivious about the sexism that the heroine has to deal with every single day.

Margrit 13:21
Wow. Really? Really.

Lin 13:24
I mean, I’m not surprised because I think that most men are. And in the story, they try to, because he’s the hero, so he’s supposed to be a good guy, right? And so the heroine and her cohort of girlfriends, tell him about all these things that they have to deal with, and they call him out on it. And he’s like, Oh, I didn’t realize, and he does seem remorseful.

Margrit 13:55
So he learns.

Lin 13:57
Sort of, I mean, I think as the reader we are expected to believe that he has learned. But even after he gets called out on certain things, he continues in the misogynistic comments and taking credit for things that he didn’t do or like going behind the heroine’s back to to snatch up opportunities that should have gone to her first.

Margrit 14:32
Lovely.

Lin 14:34
You know and all those types of things and she’s clearly, you know, much too nice to try to fight for–to get those opportunities back or anything like that, right?

Margrit 14:47
Of course, because God forbid she became unlikable by fighting for what’s rightfully hers or whatever.

Lin 14:57
Yeah, and already she is portrayed as a woman who is seen as aggressive and rough around the edges and you know, compared to some of her other female colleagues she’s already seen as, you know, so she’s like a real go getter and she’s like, not someone who makes friends.

Margrit 15:17
Oh god.

Lin 15:18
She’s the one who–is someone who gets the job done.

Margrit 15:20
Okay, is there such a thing as toxic femininity because I feel like this is what we’re talking about here.

Lin 15:27
That could be it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so like, of course he’s on–the hero is, contrastly, super charming and like, knows about the secretary’s ill mother or like the pet who has had to go to the vet for this thing or that thing, you know, and remembers people’s birthdays and all that.

Margrit 15:50
So basically, give out her emotional labor for free. That’s what women should do. Is that what–

Lin 15:59
Well, I don’t know like he is–the hero is portrayed as this guy who is really really all around nice guy, you know, the person who remembers all the little details about people’s personal lives and then goes out of his way to ask…

Margrit 16:14
Okay, sorry. I got it wrong.

Lin 16:16
Yeah, that’s okay. So yeah, so he’s like super charming, plus he’s good at his job, plus he’s super super hot and so like he’s just perfect, right? And then she is this like strong woman who’s really good at her job but not good at making friends and–or not good at like being super social and like buddy buddy with everyone in the office and yeah, so I don’t know. Anyways, so he, you know, says and does things that are not–he’s not–I wouldn’t say he’s like, right out, full out racist, but it’s like, you know, he’s bought into the–

Margrit 16:55
You mean sexist?

Lin 16:57
Sorry, sexist. I don’t know why I keep saying racist. Oh my God, my brain is just like not working today. Yeah, so he’s not like full out sexist, but he’s bought into like this systemic hierarchy, you know in society where men can get away with a lot of things that women can’t. So anyways, at the end of the book, he apologizes to the heroine for all of this like crappy stuff that he said and all the crappy stuff that he’s done. And he like finally stands up to their boss who has been super misogynistic and he, you know, stands up for himself and for the heroine, and he apparently has redeemed himself. I think that’s what the reader supposed to walk away feeling but I’m not convinced that this character has changed. Like it does not feel genuine to me. He says, sorry, a couple of times, and it feels like as long as the heroine’s no longer in a crappy situation, then all is forgiven. But like, I’m not convinced he’s really understood the obstacles that women face in the professional workplace.

Margrit 18:11
Right, because you just mentioned that he gets called out. He says–he apologizes. And then he goes about doing it again. So that’s obviously…

Lin 18:20
Yeah. I mean, I guess I just wanted him to be a feminist. And he’s not.

Margrit 18:29
Which is not a big thing to ask of a human being.

Lin 18:34
Is it? I don’t know.

Margrit 18:35
I know, I was saying it’s not a big thing to ask.

Lin 18:39
But I feel like feminism is viewed as such a dirty word sometimes.

Margrit 18:43
Of course. Yeah. And, you know, totally misunderstood. And, yeah, what’s wrong with equal, like with equity for everybody?

Lin 18:55
Yes, but that’s not what people understand feminism to be, right? They think of it as, like, women burning bras on the street and, like shaving their heads and stuff like that.

Margrit 19:07
And not having their legs.

Lin 19:09
Yeah, not shaving their legs but shaving their head.

Margrit 19:13
But that also has to do with this ingrained idea of femininity as super passive, right? Which is what the heroine in the book you were talking about is sort of punished for. Right? She doesn’t get any friends because she’s super aggressive and very, very competent professionally.

Lin 19:30
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Margrit 19:31
And so she is actively punished for not conforming to this super narrow idea of femininity.

Lin 19:39
Hmm. Yeah, I know. And it just drives me nuts.

Margrit 19:44
It would have driven me nuts. So thanks for helping me dodge that bullet.

Lin 19:49
Yeah. I mean, I think it’s a book written for the… it’s a mass market book, right? It’s supposed to appeal to the general population, but I think it was targeted toward–

Margrit 20:12
The general white population?

Lin 20:14
Yeah, this like, quote unquote, woke white woman. You know what I mean? Does that make sense?

Margrit 20:24
Yeah, maybe.

Lin 20:27
It just like, you know, I don’t know, I don’t want to. I don’t want to like overstep boundaries or whatever. But if there’s a sense of like the white woman feminist, who is aware of the way she is marginalized.

Margrit 20:49
So it’s white feminism, basically.

Lin 20:52
Oh, yeah. Yeah, sure. Yes. I didn’t know that that term existed, but that sounds right.

Margrit 20:58
Oh, it’s a big conversation around, you know, do you remember a couple years ago there was that hashtag feminine solidarity is for white women?

Lin 21:10
No.

Margrit 21:11
It’s a, it’s a very interesting history of, yeah, white feminism is a thing. And it sounds to me like that’s what this book is illustrating.

Lin 21:24
Yeah. So I think I think the book was marketed toward the general population with like, a healthy dose of white feminism, to make it feel more woke. Yeah, and make it feel more like, we’re like fighting against the patriarchy.

Margrit 21:40
But just us white women, quote unquote, yeah.

Lin 21:44
Yeah, right. And not like full on but just enough to–

Margrit 21:51
Get a husband! I’m sorry. I might be a little bit too fantastic.

Lin 21:59
No, no, I get what you’re saying. Yeah, it’s like just enough to be like hey we’re, you know, conscious of the, you know, all this stuff but it’s still a rom com and, hahaha.

Margrit 22:10
This is the thing that I think makes it more insidious is that a lot of people will, for example, sometimes some of my students will maybe accused me of over analyzing things and I think a lot of people are like, well, why do you have to go over analyzing anything and like, you know, just destroy what I like?

Lin 22:32
Yes, yeah.

Margrit 22:33
And it’s like, oh, it’s fine to like rom coms. I love rom coms. I think that they’re awesome. It’s just that, you know, they should also live up to standards of decency and not sort of propound ideas that are blatantly problematic.

Lin 22:48
Mm hmm. Agreed. Agreed.

Margrit 22:51
So I’m sorry for your experience.

Lin 22:54
That’s okay. It was eye opening. I think, for myself, it’s, I want to read books that I enjoy and like and feel are good, good literature in, you know, however you want to define that. But there’s also something to be said about reading stuff that’s not good. It’s like learning from what’s bad.

Margrit 23:21
Yeah, no, totally.

Lin 23:23
And I’m not going to go full out and say that this particular book is bad. It’s just that I had some issues with it.

Margrit 23:31
It sounds like they’re legitimate issues. And that, you know, the book has some problems. It’s not probably bad, but it’s problematic. Yeah. So yeah, yeah. Well, this is what we were talking about this week meditation and problematic rom coms.

Lin 23:54
Yeah, so what is our question for the episode?

Margrit 23:59
Just to leave people in an uplifting mood, I guess, we were asking our listeners if you wanted to share where you find your hope in trying times, if you do. You know whether you have good rom coms that are not as problematic that give you hope, or anything else. If you would like to share, Lin, where can people share their answers?

Lin 24:20
Well, I was going to say that people can find hope in a lot of things right and like what you were saying, through meditation or physical exercise, or, you know, it doesn’t have to be stories necessarily, but anywhere where you find hope and something to uplift your spirits.

And people can comment on this episode over on Twitter, @World_ofStories, or people can email us if they prefer a more private platform. They can email us at worldofstoriespodcast@gmail.com. We would love to hear what you think.

Margrit 25:05
We really would.

Lin 25:08
Mm hmm. And we will also read your comments on the next episode, if you comment, and so you’ll get shoutouts for doing that.

Margrit 25:20
If you want to. If you don’t want to, just let us know, and we won’t talk about your comments. But it’d be a really cool thing to do, because next time we have a surprise, an exciting thing happening. And so, stick with us. Subscribe on all the regular places that carry podcasts and we can’t wait to hear from you.

Lin 25:44
Yes, have a great week.

Margrit 25:46
Indeed. Bye bye.