S2E5 – Interview with Sarika Narinesingh

Margrit and Eileen chat with Sarika Narinesingh, a communications instructor at George Brown College in Toronto. We talk about taking care of your physical body during the pandemic as a form of resistance against white supremacy, how the pandemic has affected education, and the importance of a living wage.

Recommendations of the episode: Shuggie Bain by Douglas Stuart and Luster by Raven Leilani.

Join the conversation on Twitter at twitter.com/World_OfStories or email us at worldofstoriespodcast@gmail.com.

Transcript

Eileen 0:16
Welcome to World of Stories, a podcast about how stories shapes our lives. I’m Eileen and my pronoun is she.

Margrit 0:23
I’m Margrit and my pronoun is they.

Eileen 0:38
Hi, Margrit.

Margrit 0:39
Hi, Eileen.

Eileen 0:41
So earlier in the season, we mentioned that we’d be interviewing folks about how the pandemic has changed their lives. And today we are honoured to have our very first interview guest.

Margrit 0:52
That’s right. This week, we have Sarika Narinesingh on the podcast with us. Originally from Vancouver, Sarika now lives in Toronto with her partner, and an overgrown bird of paradise, Sebastian. Sarika teaches communication courses at George Brown College. When Sarika isn’t teaching, she’s usually eyeing cozy interiors, watching reality TV, or puttering around the kitchen. Welcome Sarika.

Sarika 1:15
Hi, everyone. Thanks so much.

Eileen 1:18
So we have been spending several weeks talking about how the pandemic and the lockdowns have changed the way we live, and work and interact with the world around us. And we wanted to get some outside perspectives from ordinary people about how their lives have changed for the better or for worse, or whether some things have changed, or have stayed the same. So Sarika, how would you say your professional life has changed due to the pandemic?

Sarika 1:50
That’s a good question. Um, l’d say like professionally, I feel a lot more balanced, to be honest. Like, I think with the pandemic, very early on, there was a lot of conversation about how do you strike that work-life balance. And I think, because we live in open concept apartment, we don’t have like an office. And so when we’re trying to relax, we see our computers like right there. And it’s just made it just so much more urgent in our minds that you have to shut off. And you have to have those professional boundaries, I think in a way that I didn’t have actually pre-pandemic. So I’ve actually tried to, you know, really just consciously shut off for the weekends, spend time with my partner, do things that we love to do. And try not to overwork and do things that really just make me happy.

And I think it’s also, I think, professionally, we’ve also had a lot of conversations about accessibility with students. Not you know, not overworking students to the point where it’s like, I think, early on in the pandemic, people were, teachers specifically, were like over-assigning assessments.

Margrit 3:12
Yeah.

Sarika 3:13
And so when I started reading about this in the blogs, I was like, oh, I’ve really got to scale it back. And not just for them, for myself as well. Like, we really have to encourage and walk the walk of living a work-life balance. So for me, it’s it’s been a real act in doing that.

Margrit 3:35
That sounds amazing. It sounds like you’re really intentional about that balance, which I think we really need to hone. We’ve been talking about this as well on the podcast how to, when you’re a certain type of person who has worked very hard, how hard it is to pull it back. And this walks us into immediately the next question, how about your personal life? And I know you’ve alluded to it a little bit, but how it has the pandemic affected your personal life?

Sarika 4:01
Yeah, so it’s interesting. I’ve been thinking a lot about–and this is, in part because I’m taking a life skills coaching course, at George Brown. And initially, I took it for professional reasons. Like, you know, I want to be able to coach students better and support them better. And it’s actually turned into something that’s helped me develop my own life skills and like, the sort of building blocks of my own emotional and physical and mental well being. So it kind of takes me back to the pandemic has given me time to think about what’s best for my body. What’s best for my mind. Margrit, I’m not sure if I’ve actually subjected you to this yet, but at the top of the pandemic, I signed up for personal coaching with my friend, Jacqueline Lee. And yeah, I mean, I got into it, I’m not gonna lie. And I’ve gone like a whole year now with actually working out at least two to three times a week. Just things at home, strength training. I’ve become a lot more conscious about my nutrients, so vitamins, the protein I’m taking in, cutting out sugars like refined sugars, specifically, drinking more water. And I think a lot of this is because of the pandemic and also this sort of other conversation around you know kind of pushing back against white supremacist ideas of not taking care of your body and how capitalism is going to erode you. So i’ve just had like a lot of time to think about how do I restore what the system is trying to take away.

Eileen 5:47
That’s really fascinating and I love this idea of what the capitalist system is trying to take away from us and I’d love to delve into that a little bit more. But this idea that like white supremacy tells us that we shouldn’t take care of our bodies, can you talk a little bit more about that and like in what way does it do that?

Sarika 6:16
Mmhmm. I think ideas around like what it means to be successful and how to get there. Even just this morning, I was on Instagram and I thought you know Kylie Jenner is a billionaire, right? Not giving money to pay for her stylists’ injury. I was like you know that’s one thing. She’s clearly morally bankrupt here. But in addition to that there’s like all these magazines about how she’s self made and this is just such a lie, it’s such a fiction, the idea that we have to make ourselves. We don’t, we have to, we can’t rely on other people to support us. We don’t rely on a team. We just stay up all night and we go into debt in order to you know fund this life that we want to have. I feel like all of that is like an erosion of your mental well being. Like for me at least, my experience with debt is that it erodes my mental health because i feel indebted to something. I don’t know what this something is. And so that’s one thing. The second thing you know with this rise in anti-Asian racism, it’s also getting me to think a lot about like what are the ways in which I navigate white spaces or spaces that are dominated by white people. And a lot of it is you know sort of being acquiescent or being quiet or being a good listener. Um, I still remember like in kindergarten my kindergarten teacher being, like oh, Sarika, you’re such a good listener. And I was like yeah, I am. But at what point does someone encourage you to then say and now I want to hear from you. What do you want to say now and I think all of those things contribute and feed into the ways that you know white supremacy takes away from me, has taken away from lots of people that look like me. Yeah I’ve answered your question, Eileen?

Eileen 8:22
Yeah, definitely. It’s surprising and yet not surprising how insidious white supremacy is even in ways that we didn’t realize it or have taken for granted. Especially, I think for those of us who have grown up in western society, we just–at least for me, I kind of just take things as they, like this is just the way the world is, without even knowing what to question. And when you start peeling back all those layers of, well, why do I think society works or should work this way, well, it’s because of these historical contexts. And you realize, oh my gosh, so many things that our lives are dictated or structured around white supremacy and colonialism and this very very long history. For me, I find it a little daunting, like how do we, how do we fight back, how do we resist that and I think it’s very interesting what you’re doing about making sure you eat healthy and exercise and that’s your way of resisting, of fighting back.

Sarika 9:42
Yeah, cause like when I’m physically and mentally at my best, like I’ve taken care of those biological needs, I can solve problems better, you know, I’m more clear headed. I can, I can act in my interest, like I can, I can be so determined, you know what I mean?

Margrit 10:02
And I think it has a lot to do with pinpointing what the issue is because like any oppressor, I think white supremacy is traumatizing. And I think it takes, it takes some time to get to the point. And it takes certain conditions to get to the point to realize how much harm has been done to you, by living in this structural system that is designed to oppress, right? And so I think that’s, like, you’re saying, Sarika, the first step is to just take care of yourself. And it reminds me of The Nap Ministry, which we talked about in the episode about rest as resistance, where this is their whole point is that we resist capitalism by taking a nap, by taking care of ourselves, especially for Black people whose bodies have been used by capitalism as the very engine that generates wealth, right, historically. So I find that amazing that you’re doing these things, and that you’re, you know, linking them to anti-capitalism directly. I think that’s awesome.

That’s my very eloquent response to… that’s awesome, Sarika, way to go!

Sarika 11:19
Yeah, no, thanks, Margrit. I appreciate that.

Margrit 11:22
So as an educational professional, and you’ve kind of hinted to that before, how do you think education will change because of the pandemic? Or do you think it should change? Which is a completely different question.

Sarika 11:35
Yeah, that’s a great, that’s a great question. Um, I think at the beginning of the pandemic, I was really into, you know, flexible modes of delivery, like this idea of, you know, not just having these synchronous, like, at the same time classes, but also, you know, making sure that students can access the materials outside of that time slot, right.

But then, I started to recognize that there’s something flawed about that model. And I think the biggest challenge is that a lot of folks who go to school, through, through no fault of their own–this is, this is just something that is, maybe don’t know the best ways that they learn. And I bring this up, because if you, if you don’t have that self-awareness of like, what you need in order to make learning happen, it doesn’t matter how flexible the learning is. You can, you can show up and sit there for three hours. Or you could go and do it on your own time. But if you don’t know how to learn, how are you going to make that happen? And so for me, it’s really, the pandemic and this like remote teaching and online learning has really shifted my thinking to how do I encourage and promote and facilitate an environment where students can figure out how they learned best, like for them? And how to kind of like have a check, or a way to signal to themselves, like, yeah, okay, wow, I learned that. Or this is what I need to do, because I feel like it’s not, it’s not really happening just yet.

And so for me, you know, before we have flexibility, and before we have all of these things like inclusion and access, I think we need to also get down to, are we teaching learners how to learn, regardless of if it’s in person or online? I think that’s how it should change. And then we can, then we can move into, of course, yeah, we should have more flexible, personalized learning. Absolutely. Because there is no, you know, to kind of cite the principles of universal design for learning, UDL, there is no average learner. And we need to just work that out of our system and not even think about it like that. And not, you know, bemoan the type of learners that come into our classrooms, we should be grateful and welcome them open, with open arms.

Margrit 14:16
Yeah, absolutely. The idea of the model standard is just, in all the professions, right, like, in, in healthcare and education, it’s the same problem. We have this idealized, frictionless subject that does not exist.

Sarika 14:33
Yeah. And, you know, I’m not saying this as someone who’s, you know, overcome these obstacles in my mind. I am working through them, but I think we need to be intentional about it and reminder ourselves constantly. Constantly.

Margrit 14:45
Yeah, yeah, I think asking the question is the first step right, like, identifying the problem, right? So yeah, absolutely.

Eileen 14:54
That makes me wonder then, how does someone figure out the ways that they learn the best. Because in my mind, it goes immediately to one of those like quiz things that you can take, you know, and it’ll, at the end, it’ll spit out like, oh, you’re a visual learner and so you should do these types of things to learn best. But I think in reality, it probably is not that simple. So what is like, how do we, how would somebody figure out how they, how they learn?

Sarika 15:33
I don’t know with 100% certainty, like, I don’t know what’s gonna work for everyone, and there’s probably not something that’s gonna work for everyone. This, I’ve been thinking more about this in conjunction with just reflecting on the way that I learned to learn.

And when I was a kid, my uncle once told me, he said, you know, if you can read, you can do anything. And for a long time, I actually believe that. And then slowly, when I got to high school, we were part of this, like, I didn’t know the term for it at the time, but it was basically an experiential learning project. And what makes learning experiential is when you do something, and then you reflect on it. And so at the same time, we were like, out there with video cameras, filming like little videos, and editing it together, our principal was leading these like reflection sessions. And so we had a, I was also in the art class, and so I had this like one sketchbook that I loved. And he was like, okay, I want you to reflect and tell me, how do you know when you’ve learned something. And we literally would journal about this every morning from like, nine to nine-thirty, for a whole week. And we’d just have to, like, keep writing to ourselves, and like just talking. And that reflective process helped me come to my own conclusion that like, I know, I’ve learned something, if I can confidently teach it back to someone else. And not in the way that where I’m just like, you know, parroting whatever my teacher said to me. But in a way that makes sense between the two of us, like there’s an actual give and receive. That works for me. But I can, I only came to that conclusion because of that reflection, that journaling.

And I think maybe, as teachers, we need to encourage more journaling, more reflection. And it doesn’t have to come in the form of writing, it could be in the form of talking or, you know, sketching, having a sketchbook, having something that we turn to and holding ourselves individually accountable for those that reflective practice. But yeah, I don’t know if, I don’t know if it will, if it will work for everyone. But for me, at least, that’s what helped.

Margrit 17:54
Yeah, yeah. Once again, I think asking the question and asking students to ask themselves the question. Like for a couple of years before we pivoted online because of the pandemic, I would start my first classes of college English giving students exactly those questionnaires that Eileen, you were talking about. So the first class, at the end, they would do what’s called a VARWK questionnaire, and VARWK stands for visual, auditory, reading, writing, and kinesthetic, which are no longer considered sort of top of the line type of learners, whatever. But I used it just to make students aware that there are different styles of learning, that a lot of us are actually shoehorned into visual learning, depending also on from which educational system you come from. But for me, I was totally like shoehorned into the visual. And so just getting students to think about, well how do you learn best? I think just asking the question, like Sarika was saying, you might not get the answer right away, it might take years. But planting that, because I think that’s a lot of what education does, is planting that question, planting that seed, and having students and having people reflect on it is really, really important.

Sarika 19:10
Yeah, and Margrit to add what you’re saying, to add to what you’re saying, also, like encouraging students to reflect on, you know, where they went off track, you know, where did they go wrong? For me, that helps me kind of figure out oh, like, you know, when I’m reading something, it’s easy for me to just kind of gloss over something and misunderstand it. And so through reflection, it’s like a moment of okay, I need just, I need to be more mindful, I need to, I need to pay attention. I need to read it out loud, actually. So yeah, I think taking those moments of going sideways or going off track and thinking about okay, well, how did I, how did I get here? How did I get lost to find your way back.

Eileen 19:55
So the pandemic has, obviously drastically altered to so many of our relationships and the way that we can interact with the people around us and so for you, what does family and friendship look like now?

Sarika 20:13
Yeah, that’s, that’s cool. Um, I don’t really keep in touch with my family that much anyways, so that hasn’t really been a thing for me. But a lot of my friends to me are very much like family. And it’s been interesting, like, especially at the beginning of the pandemic, I think there was like, I hate to put it this way, but almost like a trend of like zooming. Everything was a zoom, you know what I mean? And I feel, you know, over time, I’ve just, I’ve almost avoided zooms. Like I’ve, I’ve almost been like, oh, sorry, you know, I already have a zoom with someone else or… And sort of like straight up lies, because I just find it, I find it so exhausting, the zoom.

And so, but recently, actually, a friend messaged me and said, Hey, do you? Do you want to have like a phone call? I was like, Yeah, I want to have a phone call. That’s amazing. And I have to say, I think it was far more effective in terms of our connection, because we were talking for like, an hour and a half. And on a zoom, I would not last that long. Like I’d be yawning. You know, looking around too much trying to get up and like feeling bad about getting up. And yeah, so for me, I’ve actually remembered how much I love having phone calls, and how good they are. Just because you can walk around you can like, actually engage with them, and actually listen to what they’re saying. But it’s also been really cool, because like, I have a lot of friends in Vancouver, and I’ve got some friends, a friend in Hong Kong and in Manchester. And we all went to university together. And it’s interesting, because the technology has always been there. And yet now is the only time we’ve actually figured out oh hey, you know what, we can all technically meet up online and actually see each other. And yeah, so it’s a, that’s been really cool too. It just connects people that I normally wouldn’t have.

Margrit 22:21
Yeah, that’s I’m totally with you on the zoom fatigue, and especially having to teach sometimes to a wall of black tiles. I don’t know how the YouTubers do it, to be honest, the streamers and all of these, like how do they? Yeah, it’s it’s, it’s a, it’s an adjustment. And I totally take the other ways of interacting with people is so important. So I guess you, I really love that you’re finding all of these sort of positives to this pandemic experience. So I’m going to meld two of our questions together here. So about apart from from all of these things that you found, how do you find joy? Do you? Do you go and look for it in intentional ways? Or do you just rejoice? We were talking about mindfulness, do you rejoice in things that just come, you know, serendipitously to you?

Sarika 23:16
Yeah, that’s a, that’s a great question. I think recently, you know, when I watched the news, for example, or I see, you know, I’ve got the daily newsletter from NOW, NOW Toronto. And there’s always this little segment about all the restaurants that have closed down, or, you know, yeah, it’s just like, there, there is so much sadness around us. And in those moments, I am extremely grateful. Like, I get to work from home. That’s amazing. I’m so safe and healthy. Thank you. So I do try often to to think about those things.

At the beginning of this year, though, I really made a promise to myself that I would read more. I feel like, since I started teaching in 2013, I really kind of had this mentality like, oh, I just I don’t have time to read. And I’ve always been so jealous of people that are reading and I’m like, well, I used to like reading. I don’t understand, like what they’re doing. And I think I read it in some newsletter like this one guy, he was talking about–I can’t even give him credit–but this one guy that was talking about how do you read more? And he was like, listen, just don’t read books that you don’t like. And I was like, oh, yeah, that’s right. Obviously. I should just read books that I like. And so I started doing that.

And my friends who are in Vancouver and Manchester, they’re also on Goodreads. And I was like, feeling this immense FOMO. I was like, oh my god, I gotta get on Goodreads and like, see what they’re reading. And so these two things, have really sort of bookmarked or bookended my return to reading. And I’ve read like 14 books this year. And I’m feeling so good. Like they were all such good books. And I’ve got more books on the way. And I’m just feeling so guilt free about buying books, too. Like, for a long time, I was like, am I just contributing to waste in the world? And I was like, no, actually, these, these are like some of the only things that make me really happy. I’m just gonna do it. Why not?

Margrit 25:28
Preaching to the choir here.

Sarika 25:30
Yeah, I know, you all are book lovers. So…

Margrit 25:33
That’s amazing. I didn’t expect that this would be your joy. Yeah.

Sarika 25:37
Yeah. Oh, it’s good.

Eileen 25:40
So I like I find that reading definitely brings joy. And like you, I haven’t actually read that much in the past year or so. But even just this week, I’ve been reading more, and just more like fun books and not books about, you know, white supremacy and anti-racism and stuff like that, but just good old-fashioned fiction. And it’s been so nice to have a little bit of that escape. And for some people reading can also be a coping mechanism. So I guess my question to you is, what are your coping mechanisms? Whether it’s reading or something else? Do you have things that help you get through the tough times?

Sarika 26:26
Yeah, I’m the kind of person that will kind of, kind of lean into it a little bit. Probably in a–that’s probably not a good thing to do. Um, but yeah, like, I’ll play sad music. And I like, I’ll think about it a lot. And I’d lean in, I’d let myself lean into it. Like, you know, just go for it, for like a day, just ruminate. And then, you know, I’ll just do other things like I’ll think about, I don’t know, just other things I got to do, or, you know, things I want to watch or things I want to read. Yeah, I let myself think about it for a little bit, you know, be sad, kind of dig into it, but then just got to keep it moving, to be honest. You have to get out of it.

Eileen 27:11
Feel those–let yourself feel the feelings.

Sarika 27:15
Mmhmm.

Margrit 27:17
And the ruminate part. Very Virgo.

Sarika 27:20
Oh, yeah, my partner’s got a term for it. She calls it like my sad thinking. What are you sad thinking about now? I’m like, it’s just my face really.

Margrit 27:36
Sarika’s sad face.

Sarika 27:39
I’m just, you know, processing.

Margrit 27:43
Yeah, that’s an awesome thing to do. I think we should all do more of it. But I’m also a Virgo, so I’m also on the like, I totally get your ruminating, of course, you want to get through it and then move on. So that’s what helps us look ahead. And so if we dare to look ahead to post pandemic time, what’s one way that you would like the pandemic to change the world?

Sarika 28:08
Um, I’ve been thinking a lot about my guilt associated with online shopping. And just like ordering things online. And I think up until the pandemic, I never realized just like, how… So there was a moment when I was like, oh, wow, it’s so easy to just order things online. And it just, it just comes. And then I thought, wait, has it always been this easy, or is easy now, because of the pandemic. And it’s gotten me thinking a lot about folks who, for whom access has not always been there, right, like, the order to, the option of delivering or, or, you know, just getting things the next day. It’s just not, it hasn’t always been there, and going to the grocery store, has always been a struggle.

And I think, I think one thing that I want to change after the pandemic is just for us to all be so much more mindful about and intentional and to design in ways that allow for this ease of like, the flow of things. Like, when I say flow, I mean, like, even just, even cycling, like more bicycle lanes. You know, I started biking and I was like, terrified, terrified. And Margrit, I think I told you, like, I burst my knee open. I’m such a clumsy person. But I think we need to encourage people to be able to flow throughout the city, you know. If people need access to things, that’s got to be able to flow and part of what’s stopping the flow is, you know, people aren’t getting paid enough to make that flow happen. You know, everyone needs to be paid an equitable, like wage, a livable wage, like a dignified wage.

Yeah, I think those are some things that I really want to change. People to actually like walk the walk.

Eileen 30:22
Yeah, a lot of those things are quite systemic in nature and a lot of the things that people, activists have been talking about, I think, for a long time, but again, with the pandemic has really brought it to the forefront. And so what do you think each of us, on a realistic level, in our sort of day to day lives, like, what can we do to help make that change happen?

Sarika 30:55
That’s a good question. I think part of me wants to say kind of just, almost vote with our feet. Or like, put our money where, like, where our heart is, if we can. Cause that’s what, unfortunately, it’s kind of how I see the world actually responding. Like, if companies are the ones without the power, you know, they’re in cahoots with those politicians. They’re just going to respond to where they see consumer demand or money going. And so I think, you know, putting our money where our heart is. If we can, if we’re willing, and or not if we’re willing, but if we’re able to, financially, I think I think we should. And leave it to the people who can do it. I don’t think that this should be a pressure or a burden that’s carried by people who, like legitimately cannot do it. Yeah.

Margrit 31:57
Yeah. And then this is a good reminder that we can, I think each of us do a little tiny, something. You know, like when we’re getting our groceries, if, if we can go and opt for a more ethical place, that would be amazing. Or where we get our books, as you were saying earlier, or all of these small things that we’re doing. Or, you know, take our bikes and use our bikes if there are bike lanes, and if it’s safe, so that that volume is there, and the city, the city of Toronto, who has been really good about building bike lanes last year, can see that the demand is there and do more. So it’s kind of a feeding cycle as it were. Yeah, I love these suggestions. Thank you so much. So would you like people to find you online? And would you like to share where you can be found? Or would you like to share a recommendation? As we usually do on each episode? What is one of the things that you’ve liked? Watching or reading that you would like our listeners to find out about?

Sarika 33:03
Yeah, for sure. Um, so I’ve been reading a lot. Um, I don’t know. Like, where do I start? Like, it’s all been really good. You know what I mean? I just finished Shuggie Bain. I think it won the Booker. Have you, have y’all read it?

Margrit 33:18
I have not. I did not dare. So I’m excited to hear what you wanted to, what you thought of it.

Sarika 33:24
Yeah. So I was also, I was really dreading it. A lot of those topics like things like bullying, homophobia, abuse, poverty, are really sort of trigger points for me. And I thought, at first I was like, ugh, you know, is it going to be worth the pain? And then I read it. And I was like, yes, this is, this is such a, it’s a story that we don’t often hear and we don’t often see or think about or care about. And I think it’s, it’s important in that, in that way. So, and the writing is beautiful, it is. It looks hefty, and yet the pace is not. It doesn’t drag on. So I thought it was really great. I really liked, in the moment when I was reading it, I didn’t really like it. But then afterwards, it just, you know, those books that stay with you and you just, like constantly thinking like, oh, I wonder what happened to that character.

Raven Leilani’s Luster. Have you read Luster. Oh, it’s good, it’s good. So weird. So good. Um, yeah. Wow. Yeah. So I would, I would say those two books for me are very memorable so far this year.

Margrit 34:41
Awesome.

Sarika 34:42
Yeah. If you’re looking for me on the internet, I mean, you’re not really gonna find me that much. I’m on Twitter. I don’t really post that much. It’s @sarikarr. So it’s sarikarr. And it’s kind of an homage to my grade 12 history teacher, Mr. Roman, who… he had this British accent and he would always say things like, Sarikarr. And I was like, I love this. So I’m… that’s gonna be my Twitter.

Margrit 35:18
And here I thought it had something to do with pirates.

Sarika 35:21
No. Yeah. That’s a great one, yeah. I’m on Instagram, but I’m kind of private about my my Instagram, but my thing is @rikabowow, as an ode to Li’l Bow Wow.

Margrit 35:38
It’s all nuanced.

Sarika 35:40
It’s layered, for sure.

Margrit 35:42
Yes. Yes. With Sarika. So thank you for sharing those. Yeah.

Sarika 35:47
Excellent.

Margrit 35:50
So thank you so much for joining us today and answering our questions. And, and, and being here and sharing the space and telling us all about the amazing things that you’ve been doing. It really shifted my perspective, because I think a lot of us have been looking at the problems with the pandemic. And we continue to be fed news that are you know, all about, this is the issue, this is the problem. And I really love to hear your take and how you’re shifting the perspective around and how you’re finding the awesome stuff as well. So thank you for being here.

Sarika 36:24
Thanks so much. Thanks, Margrit. Thanks, Eileen.

Margrit 36:29
So, as always, our listeners you can join the conversation on Twitter at @World_OfStories, or you can email us directly at WorldOfStoriesPodcast@gmail.com. If you like our show, please share the podcast with your friends. You can rate and review World of Stories on Spotify, Apple podcast, Google podcasts, and all other major podcasting platforms. The more reviews we get, the easier it will be for new listeners to find us.

Eileen 36:56
And lastly, if you’d like to partner with us in producing the podcast, we appreciate every contribution, no matter how big or small. You can donate at ko-fi.com/WorldOfStories. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe.

Margrit 37:17
And keep on humaning.