S2E6 – Friendship – World of Stories

What is the meaning of friendship? What are the different types of friendship? What important are friendships compared to other types of relationships? Margrit & Eileen chat about how the pandemic has strengthened some friendships and strained others; society’s hierarchy of relationships that often puts friendships at the bottom; and what this means for community building.

Recommendations of the Episode: Elementary and Sense8.

Question of the Episode: How has the pandemic changed your friendships and what role do your friends play in your life?

Join the conversation on Twitter at twitter.com/World_ofStories or email us at worldofstoriespodcast@gmail.com.

Transcript

Eileen 0:16
Welcome to World of Stories, a podcast about how stories shapes our lives. I’m Eileen and my pronoun is she.

Margrit 0:23
I’m Margrit and my pronoun is they.

Hi, friend.

Eileen 0:39
Hi, Margrit. How’s it going?

Margrit 0:41
It’s going well. I’m happy that we’re here chatting about one of my favourite things! Friendship!

Eileen 0:47
Same here. I think that everybody knows that the pandemic has really put friendships to the test. Well, yeah, I mean, it’s put all types of relationships to the test, but it feels like friendships have been hit a little harder than most. With lockdowns everywhere, most people have been confined to interacting with those who are living in the same household with them. And more often than not, that tends to be family members, we tend to live with our families. And some people might live with roommates. But you know, roommates aren’t always friends. And some people make good friends, but not good roommates and vice versa. So a lot of us just haven’t been able to see friends nearly as much as we used to, or as much as we’d like to, which can make these relationships difficult to maintain. And so I think this presents a good opportunity for us to dissect what friendship means, what different types of friendships look like, and why friendships are such an integral part of our lives.

Margrit 1:51
I agree. I agree. So for me, like everything else, during this novel time of ours, my friendships have changed medium. And I think with that came like the intensity of the relationship as well. But even in the before times, I already had friends I only met virtually, and friends I primarily encountered in person.

So that being said, the medium does not dictate the level of closeness or intimacy of these friendships. So for example, even if the two of us live in the same city, we’re mostly connecting virtually, right even before we do, we used to do you know, the recordings and a lot of the stuff online. So I have the same experience with my critique partner who lives in Arizona and with whom I work in chat several times a week. So as you can imagine, that’s as strong a friendship as can be. Not to mention friends who live in Europe, whom I may see once every five or more years. And conversely, I have friends with whom I text or email only to arrange an in person meeting.

So overall, I find that I treasure each of these relationship and that they don’t stand in hierarchy, either among them or or like with my life partner relationship. And I think, I hate I hate putting human relationships in economic terms, because it’s impossible to quantify the value of the each of them brings to my life. But all I can say is I miss each and every one of my friends. Even if, you know, we’re connecting virtually, I think it’s there’s something about everything happening virtually nowadays that has, has made this idea of what friendship is kind of come in to stark relief. So I might find myself encountering something and think, oh, I should tell Eileen about this, or I think Ann would get a kick out of this thing. So I’m wondering, how did your friendships evolve for you during the pandemic?

Eileen 3:46
Yeah, well, I’m one of those people who doesn’t have very many friends. And I’m not very good at keeping in touch with people that I don’t come into contact with regularly. And so I’d say that I have a handful of friends scattered around the world that I don’t necessarily speak with very often. But when we find ourselves in the same city, we always try to meet up and it always feels like no time has passed at all. And that’s a quality I tend to find in a lot of my friendships, you know, we’re all busy doing our own thing. Every once in a while we come together, we catch up, and then we go about our separate lives again. And these, I think, are the relationships that have fared pretty well during the pandemic, like you said, because, you know, I wouldn’t have necessarily seen or spoken to them in person anyway, and so the time apart or the distance doesn’t feel like a new or strange development.

At the same time, though, I do have some friends who prefer having more regular contact. And for me personally, I find those friendships to be more challenging. And it’s a challenge that is healthy for me to engage in. So I don’t want to paint that in a negative light at all. I know some people need to see or talk to their friends, like, every week or some other higher frequency, and they need that contact in order to feel like they are actually friends. And so these are the friendships that have struggled for me during the pandemic, because we can’t see each other. And the virtual is not a sufficient substitute for in person meetings. And in fact, I’ve probably let a couple of those friendships slip through my fingers, unfortunately.

Margrit 5:51
Right. Yeah. And you know that guilt has been wracking me because, yeah, I do have different kinds of friendships with different levels of involvement. But because of these differences, the relationships themselves have been impacted unevenly, and I haven’t seen some friends since last year, especially if they were primarily in-person friends, and I missed them, and we might email or text, but I know that our relationship will survive this blip. But like you were saying just now, with some friends, we don’t see each other for years at a time and just pickup when we meet, so.

On the other hand, I still feel like I failed some friends during these times. Like I remember, at the beginning of the pandemic, I was like, I’m here for you all told me your woes, and I can deal and help and support and then things got harder and work got exponentially harder and more time consuming. And I felt like my, my resources were draining and I had to put on my own mask first, metaphorically, as well as literally just like you were saying, I’m not sure what will come of those relationships afterwards, right?

Eileen 6:55
Yeah, I totally understand that. One of the things that I’ve really struggled with during the pandemic is how life is simultaneously put on hold, and yet still trucking along. And it’s really hard for me to wrap my brain around how that’s possible, you know, like, we’re not allowed to do so many things. And yet, some things like tests and exams at schools, or doctor’s appointments, or home renovations, or moving houses or a bunch of other random things still have to happen. And so there’s this tension between having to put life on pause. And at the same time figuring out how to keep living, and it’s so exhausting. And we literally have not had a reprieve and a year of trying to figure out how to live with that tension. And hopefully it’ll end soon. I just I don’t know when. Hopefully soon!

Margrit 7:53
Right, fingers crossed!

Eileen 7:54
Yeah. But it makes me wonder about the two types of friendships I’ve mentioned before. And you know, I’m sure there are more than those two. But the question is, what makes a relationship a friendship? Is it that regular contact and interaction? Or is it something deeper that can survive distance and time? And personally, because of my own personality, I tend to lean toward the latter. But I definitely know, there are people who lean toward the former. So you know, this is a question for me. In my own experience, I’ve had people in my life whom I’ve interacted with on a daily basis, and others looking in on our relationship, thought we were friends, but really, we just were people who worked well together, but I wouldn’t necessarily call us friends. So I don’t know, what do you think about that, Margrit?

Margrit 8:57
You know, I’ve wondered about this a lot. What makes a friendship? Because when I arrived in Canada, one of the things I’ve noticed is just how easily the word friend gets thrown around, right. But for me, friendship, like you were saying, is a much deeper and more meaningful relationship than a regular acquaintanceship. So friendships, to me imply deep connections in some sort of evolution, just like with romantic relationships, like so seeing somebody every day interacting with them every day, does not make a friendship to me.

So there was this opinion piece in the Globe and Mail in January about how important friendships are and how the state should recognize them. And one of the things that struck me was when the author Linda Besner said, and I quote here, sometimes the primary requirement of friendship is showing up. The very thing I’m not currently allowed to do. Friendship and the law have been thrust into a negotiation that brings their latent tensions to the fore. So she is talking about, like you were saying earlier, not being able to show up because of lockdown and the prohibition on gatherings with people outside your family. But the salient point brings us to the way that our society privileges romantic or sexual relationships and family relationships over platonic ones, over friendships.

Eileen 10:19
Uh huh. Yeah, I read that article also. And the one story in it that really struck me was a–two friends, I think they were in the Netherlands, who were able to register their friendship under a legal status. And through that, were able to gain benefits for a number of different things, which I thought was really cool. And then the other thing that you just mentioned about how the word friendship gets thrown around a lot in Canada. We’ve talked about this in the past, and ever since we had that conversation, I’m so much more careful about who I call a friend and who I call an acquaintance. Because I realized that like, just because I know someone and maybe I’ve known them for many years, but would I call them a friend? Maybe not. So they’re just an acquaintance. That’s something I learned from you.

Margrit 11:14
I’m sorry, I have reduced the pool of friends.

Eileen 11:17
No, I think it, I think it’s better that way. Because we’re more intentional about understanding what our relationships with different people look like and what they mean to us. So I think that’s important.

Back to this point that Besner makes about the priority of or the privilege of romantic and sexual relationships over platonic ones, I feel this so so much, because I’ve spent most of my life single. And the reality is that I’ll probably spend most of the rest of my life single too. So it annoys me so much, that the society is structured around the romantic partnership as the primary relationship we have in life. And then I would say, perhaps the parent child relationship as a close second.

When you think about it every single time we as individuals have to interact with the state or with other organizations in society. The first question is always, who is your spouse? Right? The spouse is the beneficiary for financial accounts, for insurance policies, for estates. The spouse holds the power of attorney, is the default person to make decisions upon someone’s illness or death. But what if that romantic relationship was an abusive one? Or what if the partners were estranged, or disagreed on how to handle certain things? There’s rarely any room for anyone to challenge the decisions of the surviving spouse. And then what if there is no spouse, then all of that responsibility falls on a surviving child or parent. But again, you know, what if those relationships were abusive, or estranged, or what if there is no surviving familial relative, then who steps in to help? What happens then? This is all getting very morbid.

Margrit 13:22
But it’s an important conversation to keep in mind, especially in the idea that some relationships are privileged over others, just by default without having been examined. So I think it’s important, but yeah, we can move on, as well.

Eileen 13:40
Well, I mean, I guess my next point is only slightly less morbid, in the sense that we’re all getting older, and at some point, some of us are going to need significant levels of care. And who provides that care? Usually, it’s the spouse, you know. The state or society or the community is not that great at providing around the clock care to people who need it. And if someone doesn’t have a spouse, or maybe not even an older person, but it could be a younger person who has a disability, but needs more like around the clock care. There’s no one, there’s not necessarily someone there who can provide it, and then they’re stuck in this position of having to find the resources to pay for it. But that’s very expensive, right? So it’s just like a lose lose situation for so many people.

There is a Bitch Media article by Oliver Haug that talks about all of this. It quotes Caleb Luna, a queer writer and theorist, who says that, quote, the politicized nature of desire inherently impacts the way that care is distributed, both interpersonally and systemically. They call it quote, economies of care, unquote, which can leave those who do not or cannot fit the social mould of expected relationships without care. So it goes back to that idea of how do we put an economic value on relationships be they friendships or familial relationships?

But you know, having identified this as a problem, does the state, does the government, does society want to do anything about it? Do they feel like this is important enough to do something about? I would go so far as to say that they do not want to do anything about it. And I would go even further and say that they probably think that there’s something wrong with a person who is single and has no kids and has no other family to be there and take care of them. Because obviously, they’re unlovable. And that’s why they can’t find a romantic partner. And that’s why they don’t have any kids. And what is–what’s worse is that this type of judgmental thinking is applied primarily to those who identify as women. Surprise, surprise.

You know, Bitch Media article calls this the problem of singledom. And it is almost exclusively applied to women. And we see it everywhere, in all of these articles about how women can keep dating during the pandemic, so they don’t end up dying alone in their bathrooms.

Margrit 16:46
Oh, my gosh.

Eileen 16:47
Yeah, no, I’m not bitter. Do I sound better? I’m not bitter at all? Oh, no. So this is all to say that friendships can fill this care gap, if only society would allow it, if only we were taught that it was okay to lean on friends in that way. And yeah, like, obviously, not all friends want that type of relationship or responsibility, but some do. But we haven’t given ourselves the permission to try to develop those types of relationships.

Margrit 17:21
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s one of the points that the Globe and Mail article makes as well that, you know, we have to have different kinds of relationships that are prioritized in the same way in the eye of the law, because, you know, the duty of care and all of the economies of care, I think is a really apt term because it does take money in the end. It takes time to be a caregiver, it takes a lot of emotional labour, and it is actual labour that needs to be compensated and recognized in the eye of the law.

So it’s interesting, because this is one of the points about why, you know, romantic relationships are privileged that Michel Foucault, who wrote the history of sexuality, makes as well–or made a long time ago. And in this book, he demonstrates how the state basically invented demographics in order to regulate sexuality and keep it confined within the family unit, because it’s so much easier to control social reproduction that way. So making sure that sex will benefit the state, in other words, so that it had to be hetero and geared only toward reproduction. And I’m sure this sounds very familiar, because many religions also have actively endorsed this view of relationships. So at the confluence of these tremendous powers, the state, religion, what are you know, relationships to do? It’s, you know, it’s only the the sexual, romantic ones that count in the eyes of the powers, right? So friendships and queer relationships are not viewed as productive, so the former are ignored in the eye of the law, while the latter have been actively repudiated and oppressed.

Eileen 19:05
Yeah, because we need more people in this already overcrowded world that is stripping the earth of all its resources. Again, not bitter.

Margrit 19:13
Not bitter at all, Eileen! I think this should be the title of this episode. Friendships, not bitter at all. So how do we make friendships politically visible?

Eileen 19:30
I wish I knew. I don’t–I honestly don’t have any answers. Not even like mediocre or bad ideas. I blame it on this broken system that has defined modern society, this modern age, whatever it’s called. I think it’s difficult for me even to think outside the existing structures of romantic/sexual/family relationships. And I wonder if my ability to make friends and the types of relationships I feel comfortable maintaining, would look different if I had been raised in a society that valued friendship more highly. And not to romanticize or to glorify other models of community, because surely, you know, there are problems everywhere. But I think of smaller communities and villages where the boundaries between families are not so clearly drawn, where, you know, everyone is all up in everyone else’s business, which can be annoying, sure, I get that. But it also means that they take care of each other. The idea that children run around on the street, and all the adults care for all of the children is a model that is seen in a lot of places. And so the emphasis is not on who is related to who and in what way, but the fact that we are all living in this community and so we are all responsible for each other.

Margrit 21:12
And it does take a village.

Eileen 21:13
It does, it really does. So again, like not to idealize that kind of society. But I think there’s definitely benefits there that we’re missing out on.

Margrit 21:24
Yeah, I think you’re raising a really important point about community, and the kinds of relationships that it takes to build it. So like one of the questions that I was thinking, like, why does the unit of community have to be family? And how does, you know, chosen family factor into building community? And I think you’re absolutely right to highlight how crucial location is in any relationship or community building effort, because let’s face it, most communities are unfortunately still built on similarity, right? It could be geographical, like in the example of like the small town or small village. We all grew up in the same place, so we’re all of this place, of this community. Or it could be belief, right? So building community around the church, the mosque, the temple is the norm. People gather and get to know one another and support one another that way. But there’s also around the common interest like running or birding, right? Where people also gather and congregate because they have the similar interest.

So one last thing that I wanted to mention from the Besner piece is how friendships are also a mark of privilege. So she says friendship is, quote, a social good to which people have unequal access. And I found that really, really interesting. And she cites a study by Emily Bianchi and Kathleen Vos, in this journal, Social, Psychological and Personality Science that shows people in higher income brackets spend more time with friends than those in lower income brackets. In an another survey, Canadian adults with disabilities reported significantly fewer relationships than the general adult population. And I think that’s just really, really important to keep in mind.

Eileen 23:01
Uh huh. Yeah, I think that some parts of that study, I totally get and like, totally makes sense to me. There’s one thing that did surprise me, though, is the fact that those in higher income brackets, spend more time with friends. Or maybe I should say that, sure, they can spend more time with friends. But will they actually reach out to those friends when they need help? And will those friends show up when they’re asked to help? Because in my experience, people in higher incomes tend to pride themselves in self sufficiency. Right? they solve their problems by spending their money, not necessarily by asking for favors, I guess for lack of a better word. And again, it goes back to that question of what exactly is friendship? Is it just spending a lot of time together? Is it getting brunch and drinking mimosas on the weekend? Or is it that something deeper that when people are in moments of crisis, that the friend shows up?

Margrit 24:14
Hmm, it’s really interesting. And of course, I’m not sure I didn’t go to see the study and how it defined friendship or whether it defined friendship at all, or just let the, you know, the subjects just self define or use whatever concept they had. The idea of self sufficiency, I also find really important in connection to income, because I’m thinking about first generation students, for example, which I have the privilege of teaching a lot of in, in my work. And so first generation students are the first people in their families to attend post secondary education. And a lot of the times statistically speaking, they try to just hack it on their own without taking advantage of any of the supports, let’s say that post secondary institutions offer, and thinking that they have to prove themselves and they have to do it on their own otherwise it’s it’s not, it’s it’s not valid. I’m not really sure. And there’s a lot of studies that show that, that you need to actually support first generation students and really insist on, they’re taking advantage of the support because they think they have to be completely self sufficient. So it’s an interesting conversation. And I’m really interested in like learning more about what the connection between the idea of self sufficiency and the reality of self sufficiency is and the income brackets and how does that interact with friendship?

Because I think, like, the higher income bracket, everything that’s directed at the higher income bracket is a form of building an exclusive community, right? So think about country clubs and private schools where the kids of a certain income bracket would only, you know, socialize with the same ilk. So they wouldn’t have to, you know, socialize with kids from lower income brackets. So I don’t know if having a golfing buddy qualifies as friendship, but that’s how they self identified in these studies, so we should take their word for it.

Eileen 26:10
Yeah, I think there’s an interconnection between or the relationship between self sufficiency and income is really interesting and topic for another episode. So let’s go to the recommendation for this episode. Margrit, what do you got?

Margrit 26:32
I’ve got the long running series Elementary, which I’m not sure if it’s still running. I am on season seven now, which is the last season that’s available on Amazon Prime. But it’s another take on Sherlock Holmes, which starts with Joan–Joan Watson, not John Watson, who was formerly a surgeon working as a sober companion to Sherlock who is a heroin addict. And you should watch the show just because Lucy Liu plays Watson.

Eileen 27:00
And you should watch everything that Lucy Liu is in.

Margrit 27:03
This is the truthest truth ever. And I’m rec’ing it in this episode, because it’s the first show that I’ve seen that develops a friendship arc between a man and a woman and it subverts the trope of man, woman detective who go through umpteen series with high octane, unresolved sexual tension only to finally get together. And elementary is explicitly building this loving relationship between a man and a woman that have absolutely zero interest in getting together. And at the same time, they live in the same house, they work together, their relationship still goes through crises and changes and evolves and develops. And through it all, like in any compelling partnership, they respect, care and love one another and, and this is like palpable and it’s built into every single episode. So not only does Elementary buck the unresolved sexual tension trend, but it also offers a friendship as the main relationship that demonstrates that friendships are not on a lower rung to sexual relationships. Plus, Lucy Liu, did I mention Lucy Liu?

Eileen 28:13
Definitely, Lucy Liu. That’s the only reason you need to watch Elementary.

Margrit 28:18
Exactly, absolutely. Do you have a recommendation for us, Eileen?

Eileen 28:23
I do. My recommendation for the episode is Sense8, which is a speculative fiction Netflix series. The show revolves around the concept of a pod which is made up of eight people who are born at exactly the same time in different parts of the world. And when they reach a certain age in adulthood, they suddenly become telepathically connected and so they can hear each other’s thoughts, they feel each other’s feelings. Sometimes they can even visit each other telepathically, and be in the environment of the person they’re visiting. Sometimes they can even take control over another pod member’s body to you know, like fight off bad guys and make bombs and drive getaway cars and all that fun stuff.

Margrit 29:11
Oh my god. I absolutely loved and adored Sense8 and devoured each episode and was so disappointed when it got canceled.

Eileen 29:19
I was too. It’s such a beautiful show. And I wanted to recommend it for this episode because it explores the idea that these eight people in a pod have a connection and relationship that goes beyond family and it goes beyond romance. They’re connected in a way that really defies our current understanding of relationships. So in the show, yes, some pod members form romantic connections and some of them have sex with each other which, spoiler alert, devolves into telepathic orgies. So you know, to each his own. But you know, they always come through for each other and their personalities and their skills are complementary. And they start off the show as strangers who can suddenly hear each other’s thoughts. But then they grow into this unbreakable unit. And they know each other far more intimately than your standard romantic or sexual or familial relationship.

Margrit 30:26
And that’s exactly it. One of the most hopeful things about the series is how very different people can become friends and care for and love one another in different ways.

Eileen 30:35
Mm hmm. Yeah. And like I said before, the show is beautiful. It’s shot on location in all different parts of the world. And was part of the reason why it got cancelled, because it was so expensive. But the show was amazing. And it’s super, super, super queer, which is awesome.

And so that brings us to the question of the episode, which is, how has the pandemic changed your friendships? And what role do your friends play in your life? And you can answer that both pre-pandemic or mid-pandemic, or what maybe you would hope friendships look like post-pandemic.

Margrit 31:23
Or if you are listening to this episode post-pandemic, let us know how things have evolved.

Eileen 31:28
Yeah, sure. Let us know.

Margrit 31:33
As always, you can join the conversation on Twitter at World_ofStories or you can email us directly at WorldOfStoriesPodcast@gmail.com. If you like our show, please share the podcast with your friends. You can rate and review World of Stories on Spotify, Apple podcast, Google podcast and all other major podcasting platforms and the more reviews we get, the easier it will be for new listeners to find us.

Eileen 32:01
And lastly, if you’d like to partner with us in producing the podcast, we appreciate every contribution, no matter how big or small. You can donate at ko-fi.com/WorldOfStories. And thank you so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe.

Margrit 32:20
And keep on humaning.