We live on the unceded traditional territories of indigenous nations.
S2E7 – Interview with Lee Czechowski
Margrit & Eileen welcome Lee Czechowski to the podcast! Lee (they/them) is a queer mixed Anishnaabe/Settler midwifery student at Laurentian University. They love singing, puns, puzzles, coffee, and their three cats. When they used to have spare time, they spent it hiking, driving across the country, and building the best little queer haven in Northern Ontario.
We talk about working in a hospital during a pandemic, the gender-stereotypes in midwifery, being an advocate for queer and trans parents, and finding joy during difficult times.
Recommendations of the Episode: Sovereign Erotics: A Collection of Two-Spirit Literature and A History of My Brief Body by Billy Ray Belcourt.
Transcript
Eileen 0:16
Welcome to World of Stories, a podcast about how stories shapes our lives. I’m Eileen and my pronoun is she.
Margrit 0:23
I’m Margrit and my pronoun is they.
Eileen 0:37
Hi, Margrit.
Margrit 0:39
Hi, Eileen, how’s it going?
Eileen 0:40
It’s going well. I’m so very excited today to welcome Lee Czechowski to our podcast so we can continue our conversation on how to human in a pandemic.
Margrit 0:52
Me too, I still remember meeting Lee a few years ago when I joined Singing Out choir. And I’ve always been impressed by the energy they put into community building in that setting. Like I clearly remember Lee being like, hey, altos. And I was like, why don’t the sopranos have, you know, such a great champion. And so very excited to welcome Lee. Lee is a queer mixed Anishnaabe/Settler midwifery student at Laurentian University. They love singing, puns, puzzles, coffee and their three cats. When they used to have spare time, they spent it hiking, driving across the country and building the best little queer haven in Northern Ontario. Welcome, Lee!
Lee 1:31
Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to see you both.
Eileen 1:35
And right before we jump into the questions, I will also say that I also know Lee from Singing Out choir, and I remember that you were one of the first people to know my name, and be able to greet me by name, even though we weren’t singing in the same section or anything. So you’re really, really great at community building.
Lee 1:55
Oh, thank you.
Eileen 1:56
I really appreciated that.
Lee 1:58
That’s really sweet. Thank you.
Eileen 2:00
Um, so you’re a student midwife, and you’re in the middle of your program.
Lee 2:05
I am.
Eileen 2:06
So what brought you to this profession?
Lee 2:09
Um, I was starting to realize that sitting in a cubicle wasn’t really it for me. And I decided that I wanted to get into healthcare of some kind or some kind of caring profession. And as a queer person, and as a trans person, there is a huge gap in healthcare for queer and trans people, overall, and especially a huge gap in reproductive health care for queer and trans people. So I’m really interested in helping queer and trans people build their families, whatever that looks like and however that looks like. And I’m also really interested in providing health care for folks whose relationships might not like fit societal expectations, so single parents, like single queer parents, or families with multiple parents or community families. And I am really just interested in in supporting people in building the families that they want to have.
Margrit 3:22
That sounds really interesting. And so as one of the sort of path openers in this profession, what are some of the challenges that you’ve come across in midwifery? Either for you personally, or like generally as a profession.
Lee 3:36
I’m personally, as a trans person, it’s been incredibly difficult. As expected, midwifery is very gendered. And so navigating the language surrounding birth work and bodies and processes that those bodies go through have been very challenging. Very rewarding in many ways, I’ve made a lot of really good friends. And, you know, there are a lot of really fantastic allies within my program and within the profession itself. But that’s definitely been a huge challenge.
And then like, I used to work as an accountant, like my college diploma is in accounting, and I worked in logistics analysis and accounting for six years. And so jumping from that kind of work into a medical profession has its own challenges. So I had to go back and I had to redo a lot of like my high school credits because I didn’t have a grade 12 biology and I didn’t have the chemistry background or anything like that. So just kind of getting myself up to speed to where I needed to be to even apply to this program was really difficult.
And then the application process itself for midwifery is really hard. There are only three programs in Ontario that offer midwifery. I was living in Toronto at the time when I applied and decided that I wanted to go to Laurentian in Sudbury because of the Indigenous aspect. So leaving the city was really hard because I was leaving my community. And, you know, I was leaving my choir and I was leaving my friends and my family. But ultimately, I think that going to Laurentian, rather than going to Ryerson or McMaster has really benefited me, and is giving me a lot of opportunities that I don’t necessarily think that I would have had here.
Eileen 5:46
Yeah, I just, um, going back to what you were talking about before about midwifery being a very gendered profession. What do you think needs to change? Or what are some things that you feel like people need to keep in mind or things that could happen to make it less gendered to make it more inclusive for, especially for trans people?
Lee 6:09
Yeah, um, I think that, I think that people just need to adjust the way that they think a little bit to remember that like, not every body that has a period is a woman. And not every woman owns a body that has a period. So if we can just kind of shift our thinking in that way, I think that it would be a lot easier for a lot of professions to be more inclusive and midwifery, obviously. It’s just remembering that a uterus does not a woman necessarily make, I think. And growing up in the society that we do, and learning all the things that we do, you know, throughout our lives, and in school, and in each institution that we exist in, those things are really ingrained in us. And it just takes practice, I think and just remembering that, like, you probably know a trans person, you probably know, a non-binary person. So it would probably be beneficial for everybody to just like, loosen these incredibly rigid gender expectations and just just remember that, like, all bodies can do really cool things.
Eileen 7:28
Yeah. I love that idea of like a uterus does not a woman make. I feel like that should be on a T-shirt somewhere.
Lee 7:38
I would wear that for sure.
Eileen 7:40
I would too.
Margrit 7:41
Monetize your experience.
Lee 7:43
What’s that? Sorry?
Margrit 7:45
Monetize your experience.
Lee 7:49
Pay for some of this student debt.
Margrit 7:52
For sure. Yeah. Just want to go a little bit off script here and ask just a follow up to what you were saying about, about being a trans person in this program and about the shifting of the language, which comes with the shifting of the mindset. And I want to ask you, if you find yourself doing a lot of education within your program.
Lee 8:14
Yeah, yeah, I do. I didn’t realize how much labor I would also be putting into this. And I can’t lie, like some days, it’s exhausting. Some days, it’s just mentally and emotionally exhausting. And it’s, it’s really hard to rely all the time on your allies, because they’re not experiencing it every day. And they, they miss things and everyone gets tired and things like that. But like, it’s, it’s really hard as a queer person and as a trans person, as a non-binary person to always be the one to be like, birthing person, not mother, you know, chest feeding, not just breastfeeding, or, you know, however, however it goes. Gestational parent instead of equating that with mum, so and then, you know, when you’re sitting in a presentation, or you’re sitting in class, and the entire group is being referred to as strong women, strong, educated women, and you’re just sitting there like, raising your hand like, Hi, Hello, I am here, and I promise you that I am visible. So please recognize that.
Um, so yeah, it’s been a lot of advocacy, and it’s been a lot of education. And a lot of that has been really rewarding. And sometimes it is very, very tiring, unfortunately. And I think I think that that can be said about like, queer issues across the board or race issues across the board or ablest issues across the board. That the person who is experiencing this marginalization you know, from the cis hetero patriarchy is doing a lot of work. And it’s a lot of labor. And, and it’s really hard. And sometimes it’s really rewarding. And it’s also really hard.
Eileen 10:22
Yeah, I think it says a lot about your, like courage and strength to keep going and to purposely put yourself in that kind of environment and to continue to advocate for these issues, because I think a lot of people would just be like, Oh, this is too hard, and I can’t, I can’t deal with it. And then they walk away, right. So.
Lee 10:45
There, there have been many of those nights. There have been many, many nights, where I’m sitting in Sunbury, which is, you know, four to six hours away from my closest, like, friend, family member, and I’m in tears, and I’m facetiming, someone just crying like, I just can’t do this, I just, I can’t do this, this is too hard. And, like so many people have, and people in my program, too, have just, like, talked me back and been like, no, like, yes, this is very hard. And like you have to do this. It feels like a lot of responsibility. And it also feels really good, it feels really good to know that, like, my trans clients, will have someone to stand up for them. And will have someone advocating for them to receive the health care and compassionate care that they deserve. So not to say that my cisgender you know, fellow students and other folks in the career aren’t going to do that. But I it’s different when somebody has that personal experience, I think.
Eileen 11:55
Hmm, yeah, for sure. So, for sure. So you’ve been working in the hospital for a little while now during the pandemic. What’s that like?
Lee 12:05
It’s, it’s rough. It’s really rough. It’s been really hard, particularly for my clients who are going in to give birth and who, you know, in any other time or place could literally throw a party for the arrival of their baby right in their hospital room, and now are limited to one support person. And, you know, this screening processes that they have to go through, and there are these protocols that the hospital has in place. And like, basically, if you get so much as a fever, in labor, which you’re, if you’re in labor, you’re probably going to get a fever, your body’s doing a lot of work. But as soon as you get a fever, like you’re under investigation, and things completely change, and everything kind of goes out the window. So it’s been, it’s been incredibly challenging. And this is the only hospital experience I know right now. So I’m actually really interested to see what it will be like when it’s not a pandemic.
I just, I can’t even imagine being in labor and having to, you know, account for what my what my fever is like right now. Like, being in labor is hard enough.
I can’t imagine and then, like, you know, folks who might want their mom there and want their partner there, or who might want their kids to be a part of their experience or whichever, right? Like, they’re, there’s so many restrictions now. And, and I find that on top of those restrictions, like, the reason that people choose midwives is to have like that close personal connection, right? Like, you can go to an OB and you might meet them, like once or twice as they’re catching your baby, they hand you your baby, they say congratulations, and they walk our of the room like. The reason, one of the reasons that people get midwives is because you get to build a relationship with this person. And with a pandemic, it’s like, we’re in gowns, we’re in gloves, we’re in masks, we’re in face shields, we’re in hairnets, like we’re wearing little booties on our feet. And it’s really taken that like personalization away from it. And that’s really sad. Like, it’s really sad to hold the newborn baby, like to go and hold the, like to pass this newborn baby to their parent. And their parent is wearing a mask, you know, like, it’s heartbreaking. It’s really, really tough.
Yeah, especially since the skin contact is so important.
So important, so important. With all that being said, a lot of people have been opting for, like, births at the Toronto Birth Centre, which is downtown or opting for home births, which has been really wonderful. But yeah, like in in the hospital itself, I think like we all know that the hospital is an institution, but even more now it feels more like a factory than anything. And, and it’s, yeah, it’s it’s weird to navigate.
Margrit 15:29
No, absolutely. I can’t even imagine what it’s like. And how is it, how is the transition from being sort of a full time student doing more mostly like theoretical stuff to going and doing hands on stuff, noww in the hospital? You’ve described to us what the hospital experience is like, but what is the hands on versus theory part?
Lee 15:49
Yeah. So midwifery is a really cool program, because it’s a four year program. And for the first year and a half, we are in class 100% of the time. And for the last two and a half years, we’re on placement 100% of the time. So yeah, the first year and a half is all life sciences, and biology and pharmacology and reproductive physiology, and where you learn these hands on skills on these dummies and these mannequins and on each other in class. And then you’re kind of like thrown out into the world, and you’re on this placement with your preceptor, you know, doing blood draws on real people for the first time. So, um, personally, I was really excited to get out of the classroom, and into my placement. Because I just learn, I just learn better that way. Like, it’s been really nice to put all this theory into reality. I especially found the online classes very, very difficult. So my first semester of school was in person. And then just before exams last year is when the lockdown happened. So yeah, so most of my first year was in person, and then transferring over to, to online, I really struggled with that. Because I’m a very social person. And you you don’t get the same, it’s just not the same online even over zoom. Um, so yeah, so so transferring into in person full time, I just feel like, I’m, like, applying the skills that I have learned, and being able to create these relationships with my clients has been exactly what I needed. Like, that’s, that’s the push that I get every day. The days that I feel like, I can’t do it. It’s the clients honestly, that I’m like, No, I really can like I really, really enjoy going into the clinic or my in person days, because we have virtual days, and then we have in person days. And it’s my favorite, it’s nothing beats it, honestly.
Margrit 18:09
Yeah, I hear you on the online learning, you know, from the other side of the screen, you know, this is why we go into teaching, it’s because of that relationship with the students. It’s because of that report, seeing you know, students get it and, and develop and get skills and having that socializing aspect is crucial.
Lee 18:31
Well, and there’s so much learning that can happen there too, right? Like, it’s really hard on a video to, to have a conversation where you’re not cutting somebody off or like someone’s glitching or someone loses their connection or something else, right. Like, it’s, that part’s really hard and body language is so important in learning. So, yeah, it’s a, it’s been a struggle. And I’m, I’m really happy to be in this part of my program now.
Eileen 19:05
And you mentioned that the lockdown happened, sort of near the end of the semester, and then you had to move back to Toronto for your placement. And so, how was that process of trying to like relocate in the middle of a pandemic?
Lee 19:25
Um, it was interesting. Um, so, as a Laurentian student, I had to get special permissions to get a placement in Toronto. So the placement, the clinic that I’m at is a designated Indigenous placement. So I was able to get that as an indigenous student. So I’m really lucky that I was able to get this placement because it was my my first pick. It was the one I really really wanted to go to. But it was very interesting making this choice and explaining it to my friends and family that like, Yes, I could go, you know, to a remote community somewhere where there are maybe a total of 70 cases. And instead, I’m going to go into this hotspot where I will be meeting with people every single day, my clients will have COVID, and some of them will have active cases of COVID. And some of them will be recovered from COVID. And that’s going to be very interesting.
I was very lucky in finding a place. I knew someone previously who owns a house here and has like an upstairs apartment. So I had contacted her when I found out that I had gotten the placement I wanted, and luckily the place was available. So and it’s like right down the street from my placement. I’m so I’m so so super lucky that that came through for me because I think that if that had fallen through it, I know for a fact it would have created so much more stress on me, I honestly don’t know what I would have done in terms of finding a place to live. Because at least I know this person and like I’m keeping them safe. And they’re keeping me safe. Like there’s a there’s an understanding. So yeah, I think I really, really lucked out.
Eileen 21:32
It’s nice how things kind of fall into place like that sometimes, right? And it’s almost like as if it was like meant to be.
Lee 21:39
Yeah, yeah. Honestly, like I I do, I feel so so lucky. And like, because placements in the midwifery program are done through a lottery system. So you basically, they give you a list of placements, and then you rank them one to 10 where you want to go, and then it goes into a literal like random lottery, and you get what you get kind of thing. And to get my number one choice was just like, beyond amazing, it felt it felt really unreal. And I felt really, really lucky. And it was just one of those things again, that was like, Oh, I am like making the right choice. Like it just felt really affirming that I was like doing the right thing. Yeah.
Margrit 22:30
When the stars align.
Lee 22:32
Yeah, exactly.
Margrit 22:33
When the universe is telling you that you’re actually where you’re meant to be.
Lee 22:37
For sure. Yeah.
Margrit 22:39
So apart from having to relocate, how has the pandemic changed your personal life, otherwise?
Lee 22:46
It’s, it’s been interesting, I went from living with roommates in Sudbury, to living by myself in Toronto in this apartment. Um, you know, I went from being able to go out and go for walks and see people whenever I wanted and visit my family whenever I wanted, to really having to be cognizant of myself, and the contact that I have with the people I love and with my clients. There’s like that extra layer of responsibility like I, I’m, I’m caring for pregnant people, and I cannot get sick, I cannot risk that. And, you know, I also have an 83 year old grandmother, and she cannot get sick. So it’s really it’s been really isolating. And it’s been really difficult because I am extroverted. And I really do gain a lot of joy and a lot of my energy from being around people. But ultimately, I think that, because I’ve been so busy, it’s been kind of a blessing that I don’t have, I don’t have the distraction of being able to see other people because I’m on call 166 hours a week. So…
Eileen 24:14
That’s, oh my gosh, that’s a lot of hours.
Lee 24:17
Yeah, I get 24 hours off a week from Thursday at 5pm until Friday at 5pm. So…
Eileen 24:23
Wow. And how do you balance that? How do you balance with the work and the rest having to be on call so much?
Lee 24:29
You cry a lot. Yeah, you cry a lot. And you just like, so we get four days off a month that we’re allowed to take, kind of like in chunks. And you just sleep, like that’s all you do, is you just sleep and you try and recharge your batteries as much as you possibly can before you know that you have to go back and you’re on call and there’s a very good chance that when you come back on call on a Friday night at 5pm, that you’re going to get home at 4:30, you’re going to stuff your face with whatever you can that’s in your fridge, and you’re probably going to the hospital, because somebody is probably in labor. So it’s, it’s really tough. It’s really, really tough balancing a personal life, and an academic life and sleeping, and eating somewhat regularly. And personal hygiene, and therapy, and schoolwork because I still have papers to write. Yeah. And we have, we have like a three hour tutorial every Friday morning. So this program and this pandemic is definitely pushing me to limits that I didn’t know that existed. And, and somehow I haven’t quit. So that feels really good. And somehow, I still have friends and family that care a lot about me. So being sleep deprived hasn’t turned me into a complete monster. So it’s really nice. I relied very heavily on coffee. So yeah.
Margrit 26:20
That sounds like a lot. It’s kind of like trial by fire.
Lee 26:24
Yeah, that’s what it feels like. This placement, so it is the first placement that we do, this four month long placement. And it’s the only one that’s like this. So it really does feel like the program is trying to weed out people who might not necessarily be able to hack it. And that feels really bad. It feels really not nice, because my preceptors have kind of reassured me like when I’m a practicing midwife I can have every other weekend off, I can, I can take time off to be with my family and the midwives at my practice get two months off a year. And they usually take them like a month at a time, like you get a month long vacation, basically. So that you can kind of reset and replenish your stores and become a real human being again. And so this four months feels really unrealistic. In terms of like, what the rest of my academic career even will be like, and then the rest of my midwifery career. But it’s a very interesting trial by fire. It’s really hard. It’s really, really hard.
Margrit 27:47
I wonder from a pedagogical perspective if it’s sort of a like a remnant from older times where you would just throw people off the deep end and see if they can swim, which is not how we do things anymore in education. So yeah, I think, from my personal experience with midwives I had, they worked in a team of three, and I had like, I had two principal midwives. But then, you know, if somebody you know, was on her day off, or couldn’t make it, or on vacation, there was always. I think you’re right, that there is sort of a balance that you can look forward to which seems only normal, especially since the work itself is so emotional, emotional labor intensive, like you were saying. And so being sort of placed, doing your placement at an Indigenous clinic and all of the things you were talking about with having to advocate for all kinds of positions of marginalization. How does that, the experience of the pandemic, made this even sort of, brought this into an even starker contrast, because we’ve seen the pandemic bring all of these inequalities to the fore? Does that like show up in your experience even more now than maybe before?
Lee 29:03
I think so. Just as an example, like especially during the pandemic, there have been more folks, I think, accessing midwifery services, just because of the more encompassing care that midwives provide rather than like an OB or just a hospital or even just a family doctor. It also highlights the, like the haves and the have nots, right? Like so, midwives in Ontario provide care for folks whether or not they have health insurance, so OHIP or not, you are qualified for, you qualify for midwifery care in Ontario, which is fantastic and, and we really see such a diverse clientele because of that, like, it’s really, really wonderful. The downside to that is that if those folks have to transfer into a hospital for any kind of reason, their hospital stay is not covered. And so especially folks who might be living on the margins, who might be experiencing financial hardships due to the pandemic, or anything like that, like I think that the hospital and even services like outside of midwifery care, like pelvic floor physiotherapy, or chiropractic care, because a pregnant body goes through a lot and you need, you need care, those things become even more inaccessible, because a lot of the places that were offering community care are shut down due to the pandemic. So an example of that, that I’m thinking of is Six Degrees Community Acupuncture, who are a wonderful group, and, um, you know, provide community acupuncture at a sliding scale. And unfortunately, their clinic had to be shut down because of the pandemic. I think that they’re partnering with a different clinic right now, but it’s further in the west end and a bit more inaccessible, I think, for some folks. And they have very limited spacing, unfortunately, but like, even prenatal classes that used to be offered in the clinic, are no longer available. And those were free of charge. And community groups that were offering prenatal classes, and, you know, prenatal yoga, and all of these other things are no longer available. And I think that folks who no longer qualify from whichever recovery benefit might still exist, or whose jobs have been affected by the pandemic, or folks who, you know, have fallen into addiction, because of the absolute hardship that we’re all experiencing right now. They’re definitely not getting the care that they deserve. And, and that’s been really, really hard to navigate while also trying to maintain personal boundaries. Because I think that midwives and people in healthcare in general and people in any caring professional, profession sorry, kind of will go out of their way to make sure that their clients are okay. And there’s really only so much that you can do in a pandemic, given all of the things that I just explained that I’m also trying to maintain at the same time.
Eileen 33:06
That’s definitely hard. So, for our last few questions, we wanted to try to end on a bit of a positive note. Since there’s a lot to be sad and angry and frustrated about these days, but I was wondering, have there been any unexpected positive side effects of the pandemic for you?
Lee 33:33
Um, yeah, I’ve gotten to spend more time by myself and as an extrovert, I kind of always shied away from that. And it turns out that I’m not half bad. Yeah, I’ve just kind of spend time like having more quiet and I don’t know if that’s because I’m, I’m getting older and that’s like a nicer thing, or because like, I’m being forced to appreciate the quiet a little bit more, but like picking up a book, not that I’ve had time to do that anytime lately, but picking up a book or I really love to cross stitch and like days where I’ve had really really hard days in the clinic or I had a really tough time at a birth or something like that, like I’ll come home and just pick up my cross stitch and that’s been really nice. So I think that like I’ve been able to focus a little bit more on me and focus a little bit more on the things that I really love doing like crafting or cooking. I love cooking. And just like listening to really great music and when I have time, picking up really great books. And also communication between folks that I have lived far away from, for a really long time anyways, because I had been in Sunbury for a few years, um, and just like reaching out to folks and being like, Hey, this is really hard. I haven’t talked to you in a while, and I might not talk to you for a while again. And that’s okay. But like, this pandemic is giving me an opportunity to reach out to you and make sure that you’re doing okay, so yeah, unexpected connections, I guess has been really nice.
Margrit 35:36
That sounds awesome, that you’re sort of trying to eke out ways in which to find little moments of, of joy. And I again, I have to mention, how I remember you from, you know, in person, as this tireless leader and so much enthusiasm. So, and you mentioned, you know, all of these passions that you have, like, you know, like singing, like, hiking and all of these wonderful things. So, do you find a way, a place to channel these right now, or do you just save them for the future, when you’re not going to be a time straped student?
Lee 36:15
I try to fit them in wherever I can. Um, it was easier, when I was living in Sudbury, I was volunteering for the Pride Association up there, I was the vice chair of Sudbury Pride for two years. And so I was channeling a lot of my energy into that. And that was really filling my cup. And that was really, really great. Um, and then unfortunately, I had to move away and, and go to school full time. But like that, that part is still very much like at the forefront of my mind, like I might not be able to, to get out and be any official part of any kind of organization right now. But all of the research that I get to do like just day in and day out, on like trans and non-binary reproductive rights and competent health care for trans folks. And, you know, midwifery care for folks with HIV, or for people who use drugs, or people who are living out on the streets, like, I keep looking into these things. And that fire is like, still really, really burning. So I’m really excited to like, be able to get back out into the world and put these things out, out of my head and into real life.
Margrit 37:44
You’re feeling, you’re filling your knowledge tank right now. And I’m sure we’ll look forward to amazing things from you, in practice, whenever you will be able to unleash this upon the world.
Lee 37:55
Thank you. I’m very excited. Yeah.
Eileen 38:00
You had a recommendation you’d like to share with our listeners.
Lee 38:04
Yeah. Um, so the last book that I read is called Sovereign Erotics. And it’s, um, it’s a collection of two-spirit poetry. It’s really, really beautiful. It’s available at Glad Day, it’s also available online. But I picked it up at Glad Day at a drag brunch, when those were still a thing. And I just flipped it open to a random page. And the poem that I read, I just started sobbing, like in the middle of Glad Day, in the middle of a drag brunch, so I bought it immediately and, and it never stops breaking me apart and building me back up. It’s a really incredible collection of, of poetry and stories by some amazing two-spirit writers.
And then I have on my to read list, and I’ve just picked it up. I’ve picked it up a couple times, and I’ve gotten like 10 or 12 pages in. But it’s called A History of my Brief Body by Billy Ray Belcourt. And on the back of the book, it says, to love someone is firstly to confess I’m prepared to be devastated by you. And that just like, destroys me in all of the best ways every time I read it. Um, so as soon as I’m done my placement in five weeks, this is the first thing that I’m going to be picking up. Yeah, so those are my recommendations. Absolutely, 100% Sovereign Erotics, and then I’m sure absolutely 100% once I actually get a chance to crack it open, A History of My Brief Body by Billy Ray Belcourt.
Margrit 40:03
That’s amazing. Awesome. I’ve read Billy Ray Belcourt’s poetry collection and like you were saying it just like this moment of like, I can’t even move right now with all the feelings and all the all the like, just, you know?
Lee 40:20
Yeah, stuff. I have chills right now just like thinking about it. Yeah.
Margrit 40:25
Yeah. So thank you so much for these recommendations. I’m, I shall be googling Sovereign Erotics the first thing after we end this recording. Thanks for that.
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Eileen 40:57
And lastly, dear listener, if you would like to partner with us in producing the podcast, we appreciate every contribution no matter how big or small, you can donate at ko-fi.com/WorldOfStories. Thank you so much for listening and until next time, stay safe.
Margrit 41:16
And keep on humaning.